Bass Trombone Sound?

[imsevimse]

... the closer to the player, the greater the influence.... mouthpiece big, leadpipe quite big, slide less so etc etc. Interesting perspective....

Chris

Yes, I agree. Closest to the body is the brain and that is also the part that's most important to the sound. "The sound starts in your head".

The mouthpiece is certainly what's next. I often change mouthpiece on tenor. A .500 bore sound very different with a small Bach 11C and a Hammond 12M (Bach 5-ish).

The leadpipe can change the horn a lot too. A cracked leadpipe destroys the sound of any trombone. The leadpipe makes the horn a player or not, that's pretty important. It can make the horn play big or small.

The slide and bell? I have not experimented with a lot of slides and bells on the same equipment so I can not confirm that but I know dents can be pretty big and still the instrument is not affected. It depends on where the dent is.

What I think; the equipment we choose make the sound we have in our head more or less easy to produce. If we have the possibility to change our mindset and imagine another sound we would NOT sound the same whatever equipment we are playing. When I change instruments I resign to what ever character the instrument has. I sound very different on my Yamaha 612R and my Holton 169 and my Bach 45 and my Conn 70h. I don't try to make them sound the same. The same goes for my tenors. If I want the same sound I would only use one instrument.

/Tom

[MoominDave]

No mention of Bob Hughes yet? Paul Milner, the current incumbent of his former seat at the LSO, also has a sound appoach to admire.

Regarding the earlier discussion about "standing on the shoulders of giants", yes, no-one comes from nowhere, and indeed there were bass trombone names to remember from the WW2 era and before. But the changes in instrumental fashions between then and now mean that meaningful comparisons are hard to come by. Leroy Kenfield was mentioned... What equipment did Kenfield play on? A mouthpiece not dissimilar to a 6-1/2AL; an early Holton of whose dimensions I'm unsure (and then later a Conn). It certainly wasn't a .562" bore - such large tubes were not part of trombone slide design at that time. These people were playing different musical games to anyone playing since the mainstream bass trombone community unilaterally decided on .562" bores, and so the first to make their names on the modern American-style bass trombone bores do stand as pioneers in an important sense.

It shouldn't be denied that there is important commonality over the decades in what makes a good bass trombone sound - listening to the 1906 BSO trombone quartet 78 recordings with Kenfield shows even through the crackles of the medium a beautiful rich tone and an admirably clean articulation (more difficult on such equipment than now) in the dynamically limited repertoire that they chose to record. But the possibilities of such instruments are significantly different to the possibilities of bass trombone instruments as they've been since the 1960s. Yes, e.g. Kleinhammer would not have been the player he was without the efforts of the preceding generation(s). But in am important sense players of his era created the bass trombone anew. And this goes even more so in the UK, where the bass trombone tradition that preceded the adoption of modern American-style instruments called for even smaller instruments and much pointier noises - Ray Premru was painting on a near-blank canvas.

[imsevimse]

It's wrong to think old trombones were bad and difficult to play well. They were different and less consistent but old horns can still sound very good today which means they knew what they were doing in the old days too. The ideal sound was different, not bad, just different.

/Tom

[MoominDave]

That's what I said!

[imsevimse]

That's what I said!

Great to find out that two persons agree on something. You said it in more words than I did, but I don't know as many English words as you do. Good post!

/Tom

[FOSSIL]

The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.

Chris

[Tbarh]

The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.

Chris

Noah Gladstone states that his Fuchs is from 1916..

[MoominDave]

The Fuchs model Conn bass was the model for most modern basses. made in the 1920's... .562 bore slide and a big throated 9 1/2" bell. In America the 'modern' equipment has been around a long time.

But... Was it the standard that people went to then when they looked for a bass trombone? I could use more info on this point - I don't feel like it was, but would struggle to convincingly back myself up in asserting that. I'd be pointing at 70H specials being made with various bore sizes (down to .525" as I recall? Or do I misremember?), and at Fuchs basses being rare and the design not really catching on until Bach, Holton, and Conn made their later copies of it.

Or was it that that was in some cultural sense the accepted "bass trombone" in the US interwar, but that it was rare at that time, and so parts marked 'bass' were often played on smaller instruments? It seems to me that the modern bass trombone only firmed into the shape it broadly still has in the 1960s - but I'd love to know more about the story.

[BGuttman]

Up until the mid 20th Century the trombone sections of American and British orchestras were quite different. Americans used variants on the German style, often with large bores. Often an American symphonic trombone was 0.525" or so. Bass trombone ranged from 0.547" to 0.565". In Britain, on the other hand, the bass trombone was in G and often 0.525" or sometimes even smaller. The tenor was also much smaller.

If you want to hear the differences between the sections, Trent Hamilton played a quartet using an old "pea shooter" and his grandfather's G bass for the "old" sound and a set of modern sized instruments. It's an interesting video. I hope this link works:

[FOSSIL]

The seed of the modern trombone sound was planted in Germany in the mid 19th century. Trombones began to be made with a large (.500-550) bore and large (9-9.5") bell. I have an example that is in Bb and without valve but would probably have been called a bass trombone. Played with a period mouthpiece it has a tone a little different from modern horns but plug in a large modern mouthpiece and you could use it in a modern section !

Chris

[imsevimse]

One difference is their volume.

The older horns as my Conn small tenor with a 7" bell from 1902 and my 6.5" bell King from 1904 can not take the same air as my modern symphony .547 horns but if you play pianissimo the old horns still can glow while you have to struggle to get that same glow on the modern horns.

A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today. The character of loud comes much earlier on these old horns. It means the experienced volume loud does not need as much decibel compared to the modern standard of loud.

The character is what is sought of musically, not volume, not really. If we want to be heard from long distance in a noisy environment, maybe outside, then loud is nessecary. In a church or in a good concert hall were the rest of the orchestra scales down in volume the character loud of an old smallbored instrument could be an advantage.

/Tom

[DougHulme]

Interesting points to consider after reading imservimse post...

One of my teachers Maisie Ringham/Wiggins played for many years on a small salvation Army 6.5" belled 'pea shooter' trombone. She got a huge round sound out of it not too much different to that which she produced when she graduated to an Olds Recording, which in turn wasnt too different to the sound she got when she finally arrived at her beloved Conn 88. Absolutely she found it much easier to create the sound she wanted on the better equipment and no doubt helped her to do it for longer (in years) but it seems to me the player is much more important than the instrument. When imservimse says "A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today" he isnt wrong if you apply that to me but the fact is that the previous generation of players did do it and they didnt sound terrible.

Likewise there were some amazing G Trombone bass players over here (UK) who got remarkably large fat sounds out of those instruments that didnt sound too different from modern big equipment - it just wasnt as easy or as accessible to us all.

On another point and going back to George Roberts, he could project a note to the back of the concert hall without seemingly putting any effort in to it and included pianissimo notes not just the loud ones! He did that on all the equipment he ever used.

And one last point - interesting post by Doug Yeo on his "Last Trombone" blog about Edward Kleinhammer the other giant that stood alongside George Roberts in the Bass Trombone annals of history - theres a picture of them meeting for the first time in 2004 too.

Read it here... http://thelasttrombone.com/2019/09/01/1 ... 1919-2013/

Doug

[imsevimse]

When imservimse says "A modern fortissimo in a symphony orchestra would sound terrible on the old instruments if I try to play them as loud as LOUD is today" he isnt wrong if you apply that to me but the fact is that the previous generation of players did do it and they didnt sound terrible.

Correct! They could play beautiful and loud but loud was not as loud as LOUD is today which was my point. I'm talking decibel which is different from what you hear and perceive as the character loud.

I bet very few know how many decibel the composer whish for in his work when the manuscript says fortissimo but most in the orchestra knows when a sound from a trombone is perceived as loud. If the orchestra has a really loud fortissimo the small bore might not be as effective. This was is the reason for bigger horns in the first place, to be able to play louder.

/Tom

[JohnL]

And one last point - interesting post by Doug Yeo on his "Last Trombone" blog about Edward Kleinhammer the other giant that stood alongside George Roberts in the Bass Trombone annals of history - theres a picture of them meeting for the first time in 2004 too.

Several years ago, Charlie Vernon was the guest artist at SoCal Trombone Day. Towards the end of his master class, the organizers snuck GR in through a door behind Charlie. The look on Charlie's face when he realized George was right there behind him...

[bigbandbone]

Up until the mid 20th Century the trombone sections of American and British orchestras were quite different. Americans used variants on the German style, often with large bores. Often an American symphonic trombone was 0.525" or so. Bass trombone ranged from 0.547" to 0.565". In Britain, on the other hand, the bass trombone was in G and often 0.525" or sometimes even smaller. The tenor was also much smaller.

If you want to hear the differences between the sections, Trent Hamilton played a quartet using an old "pea shooter" and his grandfather's G bass for the "old" sound and a set of modern sized instruments. It's an interesting video. I hope this link works:

Very interesting video. Personally, for big band use, I preferred the sound of the G bass in this video. Has anyone experimented with one in a big band setting?

[MoominDave]

Yes, I have on occasion. It's hard going, though it does offer some nice tonal shading.

[BGuttman]

Most G bass trombones do not have attachments and thus cannot play below Db below the bass staff. Some are equipped with a D attachment to play lower notes, but they are definitely not common.

Also, the slide is a lot longer and you need to use the handle to get to the lower notes. Facility with the handle is a lot more difficult than an instrument in Bb/F.

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.

[Vegasbound]

To join in the thinking aloud, Ray has had a massive influence on the bass bone concept in the UK, but as we get more generations away the number of those influenced reduces and that may be why the classic sound has given way, Les Lake during his time at ENO and Alwyn Green also had big influences with their teaching and playing

I know Bob Hughes has done his part in keeping it alive with his teaching, and for any bass bone players go and listen to the recording of the Alpine symphony with Bob it is fantastic

As George Roberts said 'a bass trombone is still a trombone and should sound like a trombone'

[bigbandbone]

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.

This is very interesting! With this in mind I revisited my Conn 50H. For a mouthpiece I used a small shank Bach 5G that I bored out to a .276 throat. I alternated playing the 50H and a 72H along with a YouTube video of Makin' Whoopee.

Wow, the two sounds were startlingly different! And now I'm not sure which horn to use for big band work! Not having the low B doesn't bother me. There are several ways around that.

[BGuttman]

I believe the tuning slide of the 50H F-attachment is long enough for an E-pull.

There are also ways to get a bass trombone cup on a small shank. I put a Warburton 3B cup on a #4 (tenor) shank to try on a Yamaha 321 Euph. But the usual mouthpiece for a G-bass was somewhere in the 6.5AL size (per Doug Yeo).

[bigbandbone]

If you really want the sound of the G bass you might be better off using a medium bore horn with an F-attachment. But you will have a big problem if the chart contains a low B natural.

This is very interesting! With this in mind I revisited my Conn 50H. For a mouthpiece I used a small shank Bach 5G that I bored out to a .276 throat. I alternated playing the 50H and a 72H along with a YouTube video of Makin' Whoopee.

Wow, the two sounds were startlingly different! And now I'm not sure which horn to use for big band work! Not having the low B doesn't bother me. There are several ways around that.

Wow, the whole last page of this "bass trombone sound" thread has really gotten me excited and I think moving closer to what "my" ideal bass bone sound should be.

The idea that what is closest to the player starts the sound shape started me thinking. Then the video with the G bass in it was eye opening. Then when BGuttman suggested using a medium bore horn with f-attachment to approximate the G bass sound... wow, it all got me thinking and then experimenting.

Here's what I tried and my thoughts -
Conn 72H with 1 1/2G - nice big sound, but not centered enough for me
Conn 50H with a small shank 5G with a .276 throat - very centered and penetrating, but small
Conn 72 with a stock 4G - better, but not quite what I'm looking for
Conn 72H with that same .276 throated small shank 5G into a small to large adaptor - wow! I think I have a winner!

With that last set up I got the big, centered, penetrating, edgy sound I've been looking for! I wonder if anyone would make me a Remington shank 5G with a .276 throat?

[baileyman]

Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

What is certainly true is that the small horn "lights up" the high harmonics at a lower volume, and it's the higher harmonics that send the "loud" signal to the listener. Going to bigger horns over time could rather have been an effort to play darker louder before the sound lit up.

It would be interesting if there are any composer comments on trombone sound who were active during both the small and large horn periods, because the section sound certainly did change.

[Basbasun]

Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

What is certainly true is that the small horn "lights up" the high harmonics at a lower volume, and it's the higher harmonics that send the "loud" signal to the listener. Going to bigger horns over time could rather have been an effort to play darker louder before the sound lit up.

It would be interesting if there are any composer comments on trombone sound who were active during both the small and large horn periods, because the section sound certainly did change.

"Lights up" is a useful expresion. Lets say that the smaller horns lights up at 84 Db, the large horn lights up at 92 Db. (Hypotethically of course) The "lighten up" sound from the trombones in an old recording is what often makes the modern band playes louder to get the "lighten up" sound.
I can play louder at the higher range on a 500# bore but louder on the lower range on a 562# bore.

[GBP]

Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

I think there is a difference between loudest and easiest to hear.

[GBP]

Skeptical big horns can play louder. That would imply the big horn more efficiently converts input energy to dB output. If so, that would be a big surprise.

I think there is a difference between loudest and easiest to hear.
The ear can perceive certain pitches differently depending on timber, pitch and probably a few I missed.

[michaelrmurrin]

For classical bass trombone sound, my preference is a very rich sound, that has plenty of crispness, and is a very nice thick sound, and full, rich sound. Examples of some of my favorite bass trombone sounds are those of:

Martin Schippers (Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra)
Blair Bollinger (Philadelphia Orchestra)
George Curran (New York Philharmonic)
Christian Jones (formerly of Philharmonia Orchestra)
John Lofton (Los Angeles Philharmonic)

For my own playing, my approach is just to listen to recordings (ideally solo albums or YouTube videos) of my favorite bass trombone players and just try to imitate their sound quality.

For jazz bass bone I don't really have a lot of experience or knowledge there.

[bigbandbone]

My main emphasis is big band and I work very hard to get a compact and focused sound on my 72H. But I also play third trombone in a very serious Symphonic Community Band. It has a real legit director and very serious symphonic wind musicians. I don't try to "change" my sound for this group. And surprisingly, I've gotten a lot of compliments on the "presence" I give to the bottom of the trombone section. Go figure....

[dukesboneman]

Here`s a couple examples of both
Commercial/Jazz - Bill Reichenbach
Classical - Denson Paul Pollard -

[trombonedemon]

I am no expert on bass trombone playing, but in my experience the major difference between big band and orchestral bass trombone is about style and articulation, not actual "sound," and the same goes for equipment. There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.

Indeed! I not sure why anyone would think otherwise, maybe it makes some people feel better about there playing abilities?

[Jimprindle]

It really varies. For awhile, the bigger orchestras were competing over big equip, bigger mpcs, big loud bass trombone sounds. I think that changed in the late 1990's early 2000's. Now I think the examples being led by Boston, NYC (don't know about Chicago or others) is to use the instrument that fits the music. A Mahler bass trombone part is not Mozart, playing pops concerts of Gershwin, John Williams, is not the same as Rossini or Offenbach.

It used to be one horn fits all in symphony orchestras, maybe the same in smaller orchestras but I think the over-sized equipment has gradually gone down to a "moderately big" bass trombone equipment.

And especially personal preference rather than trying to live up to a general idiom.

Today and yesterday I performed Wm Tell ovt. and Bartok Concerto for Orchestra with a large excellent orchestra. I used the same instrument/mpc but used different "tone" and "articulation" concepts. Worked fine. I have heard personnel in Boston would actually change equipment. But they are way above my pay grade.

To the poster concerned about fitting in a community symphonic band: it's a big concert band with several different people and equipment on the same parts throughout the brass section. Not the same thing as 12-14 brass players playing one on a part trying to fit in with dozens of string and ww players. Just play what makes you happy and sounds good.

[LumberJill]

I'm bringing this conversation back, but will put a little different spin on it. If your experience is similar to mine, there are handful of recordings and live music experiences that have shaped the sound in your head. Sometimes those influencers are bass trombone sounds, but not always (or even mostly in my case). Our own personal sound is like a great big soup with flavors added in from diverse musical experiences. The most influential sounds are those ones that we keep going back to, hitting rewind and listening to Again...and again...and again. Those sounds and styles get under your skin. They get into your bones. They become the song in your head and if you practice enough, they come out your bell. Here's a list of mine. I can't explain why for some of them, but these are the ones that I keep going back to.

There's an old recording of antiphonal Gabrieli music with the brass sections from Chicago, Cleveland and Philadelphia. I listened to the last part of Conzon Duodecimi Toni a thousands times or more. I'm not sure if the sound that captivated me came from Kleinhammer or Ed Anderson. My guess is Anderson.

San Francisco Symphony - Mathis Der Maler - Blomstedt - John Engelkes (John told me that he played on a Conn 62H for this recording). Funny that of all the great SF recordings, this is the one that fascinated me.
Cleveland Orchestra - Pictures - Lorin Maazel (not the one with George Szell) - Ed Anderson
Los Angeles Phil - Dvorak 8 - Esa Pekka Salonen - Jeff Reynolds
London Symphony Orchestra - Sibelius 2 - Colin Davis - ???
Chicago Symphony - Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme - Reiner - Kleinhammer
London Brass Intrada Album - Dave Stewart
Bach Cello Suites - Janos Starker (also Rose, Casals and Rastropovich...but mostly Starker)
Cecilia Bartoli Rossini Arias Album
Jessye Norman - Gounod - Ave Maria
Tons of live concerts of the Rochester Philharmonic - Dave Richey
Special mention has to go to turning pages for the piano player in the recording sessions for Blair Bollinger's Fancy Free album. Sitting in that room listening to Blair all day and then going home and practicing, my sound changed dramatically in that ONE WEEK.

For Jazz
The Incredible Kai WInding Trombones Album - Tony Studd
Thad Jones Mel Lewis Band - Live at the Village Vanguard Album - I thought was studying Mel Lewis's time and feel, but Cliff Heathers' playing was taking root in my mind.
Frank Sinatra - The Capitol Years - George Roberts sets the bar for big band playing in a lot of these sessions, BUT Sinatra had a bigger influence on my sound, if I'm being totally honest.
Dean Martin - Ain't That a Kick in the Head - LOVE the bass trombone playing on that track. No idea who it is. Definitely qualities to Dean's voice worth emulating there as well.
Mel Torme - Tons of stuff. More for articulation and style than tone color.
For me, if you could take a base stock of Sinatra, add some of the "burn" in Lou Rawls' voice, articulations from Mel Torme and be able to lay back and swing hard like Tony Bennet when he sang with the Basie band...Game over. That's the perfect commercial bass trombone sound.

Those are the ingredients in my secret sauce. What are yours?

[sf105]

For jazz (currently listening to the inevitable Dave Taylor) I find myself listening to baritone sax players, e.g. Harry Carney.

[ssking2b]

Tony Studd, Dick Hixon, George Roberts, Lewis Van Haney, and Ed Kleinhammer. Done deal.

[gbedinger]

...smaller brass group I strive for a bigger/rounder "pillowy" sound. No sharp edges. When I'm playing bass in a big band I go for a centered more focused and penetrating sound. First because I need to blend with the rest of the section. Second, because there are so many juicy little bits in the bass book that really need to be heard with some presence.
The only time I vary from the focused bigband sound is when playing a featured solo. Then I play with a sound somewhere in between the two ala George Roberts.
Like I said, just my humble op

I don’t spend as much time here anymore,and I’m coming in late, but this is one one of the more interesting (and substantive) discussions since the “who in their right mind plays a 1 1/2g?”

My concept is more like the quote above...in big/jazz band it is a more centered and focused sound, predominantly. In a symphonic setting it varies.

In symphony, something like a Tchaikovsky symphony, I played with an edge much like a big band sound, since the part was typically a double (by octaves) with the tuba.

On the extreme other end, was the playing and interpreting the Brahms symphonies on third (not bass!) trombone. Articulations were as round and sonorous as I could make them, particularly since there was no tuba and I was the lowest brass player in attendance. And you know what? As much as I loved playing the bombastic bass trombone parts, the greatest surprise and most pleasure in my years of symphonic playing were those Brahms Symphonys.

Finally, I liked LumberJill’s conceptions of sound coming from vocalists. I could also name a few trombonists that have made an impression (many from the ATW/ETW, Taylor, van Dijk, Bollinger, Guilford, Attema, Marley, et al), but as a youth, I remember the Rat Pack singers and music by Nelson Riddle, and that all made an impression. (If only I had had access to 60s recordings, so easily available these days, back then, eh?)

We are all products of our upbringings, n’est pas?

[dukesboneman]

When I was seriously getting into Bass Trombone as an actual serious double.
I went back to 4 players whose sound I always loved
Don Knaub - Studied with Don for 2 summers at Eastman.
Bob Kalwas - I studied with Bob for a year. He is a Remington Student.
Mike Purdy - Retired from the Philly Pops Orch. Mike has more of an Old school Bass trombone sound
and
Instrument repair wizard - Paul Able
All 4 of these guys have beautiful big dark sounds that when needed, can hit you in the chest and be felt.
I know these might not be household names to many here, sometimes our influences are closer to home

[spencercarran]

A little surprised not to see any mention of Tomer Maschkowski. Great warm vibrant sound, weighty without being heavy. I really enjoy his duets with Martin Schippers.

[FOSSIL]

Had to re read this thread to remind myself what it was about. At one point it degenerated into a pissing match about the pro and not so pro George Roberts camps....
Moving on, The OP asked about sounds for classical and Jazz and examples of players who play well in each style.
Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.

Chris

[fsgazda]

[bassboy]

A little surprised not to see any mention of Tomer Maschkowski. Great warm vibrant sound, weighty without being heavy. I really enjoy his duets with Martin Schippers.

Seconded! Love the video of him playing the Ewazen Concertino. I've never really heard anybody make the YBL-830 sound quite that rich before. What an excellent instrument spokesperson.

[spencercarran]

Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.

I've seen an article which claims the articulation is also the only difference between trumpet and clarinet. If true, probably fair to say it holds for jazz bass bone vs classical bass bone.

[Bach5G]

There are a lot of great players, more than ever. A lot of great sounds.

B McChesney has a few videos of various players playing studies from his Harmonic Dexterity. Here’s one featuring Bill R.



He makes it sound so easy. Back in the day Bill and Mike Davis hit town with the unpromisingly named Trombone Circus. Bill stole the show. I spoke to him briefly afterwards and commented that I had to go home and practice my long tones. So did he, he said.

[BrianJohnston]

Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)
Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)
Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)
Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)

[paulyg]

Most important thing about a bass trombone sound is intonation.

[FOSSIL]

Most important thing about a bass trombone sound is intonation.

Not inclination?

Chris

[LeTromboniste]

Can I dare to venture that the sustained sounds are not so different and it's the articulation that differs with style.

I've seen an article which claims the articulation is also the only difference between trumpet and clarinet. If true, probably fair to say it holds for jazz bass bone vs classical bass bone.

It's a bit more complex than that. Chop off the attack and decay phases of a tone of the same pitch from a few different instruments, keeping only the sustain phase, shuffle them and have someone try to identify them, and they'll have a hard time, especially without knowing what the possible instruments are. They'll all sound very different, but they are really hard to associate with the instruments because so much of the information our brain usually uses to distinguish between them is missing.

But that isn't to say the articulation is the difference (otherwise we'd perceive the tone of an accented note on trombone as extremely different than a legato note). The attack phase is much broader than just the articulation. There are things that happen during the attack phase of a trombone note consistently differently from say, a saxophone note, regardless of the articulation we use. The timbre of the sustain phase is also still super important .I agree that a lot of the difference, or most, between different styles is articulations, but a jazz trombone player still sounds like a trombone player, not like an entirely different instrument.

Side-note - the clarinet is actually one of the easiest for your brain to identify without the attack phase, because its tone only contains the odd-numbered harmonics, which gets it closer to an ideal square wave than to an ideal sine wave. That is a very rare feature among commonly heard instruments.

[WGWTR180]

Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)
Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)
Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)
Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)

Loud? Soft? Not sure if you're being sarcastic to be short and sweet but....

[Savio]

Sound is not easy to put words at. Mostly all professional players I have heard have good sound, even many amateurs have good sound. The bass trombone is a good sounding instrument. At least all us of us agree on that...hehe. But many in the public like it too. I often play in churches and its easy to get a nice sound that many likes. At least the old ladys in my church like it.... Classical and jazz sound is maybe more how you play? Style, articulation and so on. But all sounds must have a solid core without being too penetrating or brassy, difficult to put words on. Just beautiful is maybe the best word? Since I really dont know much about nor jazz or classical I dont know what they really look for. It maybe differ from player to player. I see many classical symphony players have more than one trombone and use different instrument depending on what music the play.
Im from a time without internet so I got influenced by live players and teachers, and George Roberts which I stumbled over in a supermarked. Not him personal, It was in that time where they played music in all shops. Cant get that sound out of my mind. I listen everything today and there is so much nice to listen. All different but all nice. Some bad on youtube of course. But so many professionals today with excellent sound.

I believe that today most bass trombone players need more hats in their work than before? They have to vary their playing?

Leif

[MStarke]

I have not read the full and very long threat (again), but if thinking about great bass trombonists and bass trombone sounds that might not have been mentioned yet:
- Stefan Schulz and Thomas Leyendecker/Berlin Philharmonic
- Uwe Füssel/Munich Opera and German Brass
- Maybe a little different for Americans, but great playing and sound can also be found e.g. from SIegfried Cieslik and Hermann Bäumer, former bass trombonists of the Berlin Phil. If you want to go even deeper into German style, look at e.g. Staatskapelle Dresden
- Brandt Attema/Dutch Radio Orchestra

I am very happy that I have had lessons or studied with a few of them...

I think the usual suspects such as Charlie Vernon, George Curran, James Markey, George Roberts, Bill Reichenbach etc. have all been mentioned multiple times.

[hyperbolica]

One of my favorites that hasn't been mentioned is Max Seigel, NY freelance. Max kind of redeems the bass trombone as a real musical instrument for me. I've heard him primarily in his chamber music mode, http://weathervest.com/.

[BrianJohnston]

There are definitely more variables than you described, but I understand you wanted to be short and sweet.

Loud Orchestral: Don Harwood (This is THE loud orchestral sound)
Soft Orchestral: Charlie Vernon (There are many options, but this man plays so beautifully soft)
Loud Jazz: Dave Taylor (Also many others who could've been included, but Dave has that perfect hybrid Jazz/classical loud sound)
Soft Jazz: George Roberts (What a marvelous sound, and someone who paved the road for all bass trombonists)

Loud? Soft? Not sure if you're being sarcastic to be short and sweet but....

In confused, i'm just giving my personal preferences on Bass Trombone sounds, which dynamic has a lot to do with.