Mating bells and slides of different brands

[novalvz]

I am curious about the feasibility/compatibility of mating the bell section of one brand to the slide section of a different brand, using the tenon and screw connector of either.

I am referring to small bore pro tenors (.491 to .508) like 2B, 3B, 6H, 891, etc.

Have any of you done this type of mod? Are there inherent problems with such a hybrid?

Are there obvious tuning issues?

Any insight would be appreciated!

[Matt K]

Obviously you have to have an equal or shorter length handslide. Otherwise it's too flat and you can't do anything about it!

It's a lot easier to swap the tenon out but sometimes you'll have to replace the whole cork barrel. It's easier to buy a cork barrel of a larger bore (eg a 508 cork barrel for a 500 inner) than it is the other way around. Sometimes it just isn't possible because of the I'd of the cork barrel. Some tenon's are soldered to the inner slide. More work, more $$.

If the bore is way different it can cause problems too. I had a 508/525 shires slide that had a small receiver on it. Played great on my Bach 9 bell. But it also played like 5 cents flat all the way in! Length was not too far off but just way too big for the smaller bell I suppose.

Between these things, it often isn't worth it because there are too many differences but some times its fine. Eg a 2b slide on a 3b bell after a tenon swap. Or a Yamaha slide on another Yamaha bell. Most of the small bore stuff I've tried is compatible and largely a good fit for other yanaha bells for example.

[BGuttman]

I can tell you a couple of combinations that DON'T work.

King trombones have the bell nut on the slide while Conn (and many others) have the bell nut on the bell section. Can't mix them.

I'm currently trying to find a slide to fit a Martin Indiana bell. It has the bell nut on the bell. A Cecilio slide doesn't fit (and bell nut is on the slide so they don't work together anyway).

[Jgittleson]

I did this with my holton 181 a long time ago. I hated it with the original slide, and my shires slide was a perfect fit, just needed a different lock nut. Made all the differebce in the world, became my favorite setup.

[Bach5G]

Yam and Bach?

[Matt K]

Yam and Bach?

That will work for some of the basses. I don't think I've encountered a pairing that works on any of the tenors though I've not tried may of those combinations.

[CalgaryTbone]

As long as the bore is more or less comparable, you can put together a slide and bell that don't have similar connections by having a tech change either the connection on the bell or slide (or both). Doug Edelman(R) from the Met used to play a Bach slide on a Conn bell, but he had a couple of slides and bells all set up to have the proper connecting parts on them so he could swap parts for his uses.

Costs some money, and if you can't put them together well enough to try them before the "surgery", it could be a waste of time. This is the very thing that started the modular designs for Edwards/Shires, etc. Still, it could be worth it if you find something like a vintage bell that doesn't have a useable slide.

Hey, it's only money, and we're trombone players - it's not like any of us have money!

Jim Scott

[baileyman]

A selection of taper adapters would match most anything to most anything else. Then use it old school without a locking nut. You get a bump at the joint, but then Bach used that intentionally.

[Savio]

I wonder if my old bach 50bl bell can fit on my Holton 180 slide?

Leif

[novalvz]

Thanks for the input.

I like the idea of taper adapters. Actually playing a combination will determine if there are intonation issues.

Are these adapters commercially available?

[SwissTbone]

I play a nach bell sectipn with an edwards slide on bass and a bach bell with shires slide on tenor. Great combinations. I guess i dont like bach slides...

The Shires slidw had to be adapted somewhat

[mrdeacon]

I wonder if my old bach 50bl bell can fit on my Holton 180 slide?

Leif

Leif, it'll friction fit but the Holton threads are different and the slide won't screw onto the Bach bell section.

[TromboneMonkey]

Thanks for the input.

I like the idea of taper adapters. Actually playing a combination will determine if there are intonation issues.

Are these adapters commercially available?

At least one maker (Mike Corrigan) makes a slide with an unscrew-able bell tenon.

I don't know of any others. Seems like an adapter would necessarily make the instrument longer and might result in pitch issues.

[baileyman]

...
I don't know of any others. Seems like an adapter would necessarily make the instrument longer and might result in pitch issues.

Such an adapter can be merely a trimmed sheet of brass wrapped around the tenon, diagonally to overlap, or plumber's tape as someone mentioned. The extra length is tiny. I once used a piece of aluminum can, but electrolysis got going pretty quickly.

[TromboneMonkey]

...
I don't know of any others. Seems like an adapter would necessarily make the instrument longer and might result in pitch issues.

Such an adapter can be merely a trimmed sheet of brass wrapped around the tenon, diagonally to overlap, or plumber's tape as someone mentioned. The extra length is tiny. I once used a piece of aluminum can, but electrolysis got going pretty quickly.

True; I was thinking of going the other way-- like a larger male tenon to a smaller female tenon.

[hyperbolica]

I just found an odd combination that seems to work both ways (not that either really needs improvement - they are both great horns as they are) . Shires Michael Davis plus and Conn 79h. The MD+ slide fits perfectly onto the 79h bell and the threads even engage. My 79h has a 1950s 78h red brass bell with a slightly smaller bell {7 3/4"). Its a very nice combination. The Shires is surprisingly bright and clear on its own. The nickel slide lends some brightness to the 79h.

Meanwhile, the 79h slide is actually a little loose in the MD+ bell. It threads, but takes a long time to tighten. The 79h slide is much wider than the MD+ slide, and stabilizes and maybe darkened the sound a little.

I didn't get too involved with checking intonation, but it was not way out of whack. The intonation on the MD+ really lines up for all partials better than any other horn I own. The 79h is an average 60 year old Conn. So I'm sure this swap doesn't improve the intonation of the Shires, but it might for the Conn, although I doubt that too.

Several years ago I was trying to find a Shires that could replace my 79h. Trying to simply copy specs didn't work at all. A 525 bore 8" bell Shires plays like an 88h, not a 36b. If you put a valve, a slightly bigger leadpipe and a gold brass bell on the MD+, it would be a fair 79h (at 3x the price).

[fantrombone]

what about conn and olds?

[Arrowhead]

what about conn and olds?

As far as I know (I've tried a few combos) they won't fit.
The Olds bells are interchangeable between other Olds small bore horns.
With the Conn bells you can actually use a Getzen or Edwards slide, although it won't sound like any horn in particular.

[ngrinder]

I did this for a long time with a Holton Stratodyne bell section and a Bach slide. I had to replace the slide tenon to with a Holton piece to have it fit into the bell section, but it was a cheap mod and worked perfectly, hardware wise. The only issue was the pitch - things worked *pretty* well, but some partials had really wonky positions. If I revisit the idea I’d probably swap out the Bach flare with the Holton.

[Tbarh]

I did this for a long time with a Holton Stratodyne bell section and a Bach slide. I had to replace the slide tenon to with a Holton piece to have it fit into the bell section, but it was a cheap mod and worked perfectly, hardware wise. The only issue was the pitch - things worked *pretty* well, but some partials had really wonky positions. If I revisit the idea I’d probably swap out the Bach flare with the Holton.

Are we talking about the small 7"bell,485bore Stratodyne?.. What Bach slide did You mate with it?

Trond

[ngrinder]

It was a 7.5 inch bell mated with a Bach 12 slide.

[Tbarh]

It was a 7.5 inch bell mated with a Bach 12 slide.

[JoshE]

Does anybody know what slide might work well with a YSL-643 bell section?

[JLivi]

I'm just about to do this project with two Conn horns. I have a 74h (8.5" bell with 525 slide) and I want to pair it with an 88h bell. Main reason, being that I wanted the valve. The 74h plays so well, and I just picked up an 88h for kind of cheap. I'm hoping that mating the two together with be a match made in heaven. A poor man's version of just getting an 88h(o) with the sl2525 slide

The screws seem to fit, but the bell is a little loose. Is there anything I need to be worried about going into this, or will it be a pretty simple, easy and maybe cheap (?) project?

[GBP]

what about conn and olds?

As far as I know (I've tried a few combos) they won't fit.
The Olds bells are interchangeable between other Olds small bore horns.
With the Conn bells you can actually use a Getzen or Edwards slide, although it won't sound like any horn in particular.

Edwards and Getzen use different tenons Getzen and Conn will work.

[AYG1941]

Just in case anyone is interested:-

A few years ago I built two hybrid trombones, both with KING 2B .491"/.491" lightweight slides and Amado spit valves.

One has a KING 2B single radius crook and the other has a CONN dual radius crook.

This was done to satisfy my curiosity regarding resistance, response and sound quality as discussed in various texts and band instrument catalogues.

Both use .491" lead pipes obtained from KANSTUL along with corresponding screwed adaptors. The lead pipes are JW1, AK1 and 2B1.

Regarding the bells flares, one is from a 1927 CONN 4H and the other from a 1930 CONN 24H. In both cases, the material is "Trumpet Brass" as detailed in articles by Ben Griffin.

KING 2B slide/bell connectors and other bits and pieces were provided by a helpful brass repair technician.

Both hybrids work fine in a big band situation and I have had lots of fun with my experiments.

[heinzgries]

combine an alto bell with a Bb slide and you have a trombone pitched in flat Db

[sithlord666]

my holton tr-181 had a Bach 50B slide. Played beautifully.


Yes. I did the same.

[sithlord666]

Anyone know if a Shires Bass trombone slide will fit a Bach 50B3O?

[Kevbach33]

Anyone know if a Shires Bass trombone slide will fit a Bach 50B3O?

I recall in the old forum somewhere that Shires can (does?) build slides with Bach tenons and threads. I don't believe stock slides will engage with the Bach nut.

Just be aware that the Shires slide will be shorter than a Bach slide and tune accordingly.

[stewbones43]

I play a Conn Gen II 88H with a Yamaha slide (No model number, push fit lead pipes and gold brass outers.)
Also have an old Yamaha YSL 641 bell with an old Abilene 88H slide.
Both work fine. I prefer the Yamaha slide on the Gen II and I sometimes use the 641+88H slide for orchestral stuff that doesn't need a trigger.

Cheers

Stewbones

[ronnies]

Anyone know if a Shires Bass trombone slide will fit a Bach 50B3O?

My Shires bass trombone slide fits my Bach 42 and vice versa.

Ronnie

[Burgerbob]

Anyone know if a Shires Bass trombone slide will fit a Bach 50B3O?

Yes*

*some fit with no issues. But Shires tenons are a very slightly different size than Bach/Edwards (as well as the threads being different) and some won't work at all.

I put an Edwards tenon on my Shires dual bore slide to make it a sure thing. Previously it worked on some horns, and on some the bell section would flop over regularly.

[Dennis]

Just be aware that the Shires slide will be shorter than a Bach slide and tune accordingly.

Most Bach 50s I've played with axial valves are flat. I have to play mine with the tuning slide closed to get to 440, and I'm screwed if the pitch goes up.

A shorter slide would actually be useful to me.

[Basie1955]

Just got my Bolero back. It’s now got 3B fittings on slide and bell.
Now everything on Selmer and 3B are interchangeable.
Will be very fun.

[ithinknot]

Has anyone here tried the 2B slide/3B bell combo?

... as heard with
JJ - https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p3_ ... &q&f=false
Urbie Green's 'Persuasive Trombone' albums - https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... +3b#p13587

[stanzabone]

Has anyone here tried the 2B slide/3B bell combo?

I have sort of the opposite setup. 3B slide, neck tube & tuning slide with the bell from an old King Tempo. My original plan was just to connect the bell & slide with a new tenon, but the condition of the two horns didn't permit it. The final setup is similar to a Bach 16m built from King parts. Small bell, .509 3B slide with the 3B neck pipe. 3B with a nickle plated bell, anyone? It ended up playing OK!

[Gatt]

I have an Edwards large bore tenor bell section.

Will an Edwards bass slide fit?

I believe they use the same connection. Is this correct.

[elmsandr]

I have an Edwards large bore tenor bell section.

Will an Edwards bass slide fit?

I believe they use the same connection. Is this correct.

Yup.

Cheers,
Andy

[jelise972]

Hello,
Before asking I browse the forum and found this thread.
My question is about mating a King 2B bell with other models and/or other brands slides :

What slides could match a 2B bell without any modification ?

Best
Joel

[ithinknot]

What slides could match a 2B bell without any modification ?

From the archives:

2B/Jiggs/old single bore Liberty/605/older tempo with 7.5” nickle bell are compatible

3B/2B+/606/Benge 170/Tempo with 8” nickel bell are compatible

3B+/607/608/609/Benge 160,175 are compatible

4B/5B/Benge 165 and 190 are compatible

Different tenons between each series, so some mods would have to be done to put a 3B slide on a 3B+ bell section

[jelise972]

Thanks a lot !

[lupusargentus]

Does anybody know what slide might work well with a YSL-643 bell section?

For giggles one night I swapped slides between my 643 and 548GO and everything hooked up fine. The tuning slides are also compatible although one (can't remember which) doesn't close up completely on the other horn. I think it's interesting that two horns made about 40 years apart have compatible parts.

[sithlord666]

Hello all. What slide would fit a Jupiter 740 Bass trombone? I have a good 72H slide that fits, and even screws down. Are there any other slide combinations that may fit. It's a terrific jupiter Bass. The original slide is trash.

[Matt K]

Does anybody know what slide might work well with a YSL-643 bell section?

For giggles one night I swapped slides between my 643 and 548GO and everything hooked up fine. The tuning slides are also compatible although one (can't remember which) doesn't close up completely on the other horn. I think it's interesting that two horns made about 40 years apart have compatible parts.

Probably the 548 because of the tuning slide brace. Makes it a little less flexible.

[heinzgries]

i combined the bell section from my Thorsten Mittag alto trombone with the Conn 34H slide section. The result plays better as using the original slide.