Maintenance on TIS slides

[harrisonreed]

I might be getting my hands on a TIS horn soon, and I'm wondering how to do basic maintenance on such a slide. How is a TIS side put together? Is the tuning leg the length of the entire tube? That seems like a crazy amount of tuning slide grease needed. How do you prevent the grease from getting into the inside of the slide tubes?

I looked for schematics or guides and can't find any.

[Burgerbob]

It's usually only a couple inches of the slide, not the whole tube. That would be a heavy beast!

[Elow]

I was told to use the same brand tuning slide grease and slide lubricant for TIS horns. I think it has to do with what can break down what, but i really found no problem either way. The tuning slide just kinda doesn’t get on the slide, but i don’t put that much on anyway. The outer slide comes apart in two parts and assembles like a tuning slide would. My beautiful drawing should demonstrate that

[harrisonreed]

It's usually only a couple inches of the slide, not the whole tube. That would be a heavy beast!

So how do you maintain it? Wouldn't it push tuning slide grease into the inside of the outer tube? Wouldn't the inside of the outer slide have a step in it? I'm in the school of polishing the crap out of the outer slide for a good action, and I don't see how that would work with two different levels of tubes in the outer slide.

[Burgerbob]

It's usually only a couple inches of the slide, not the whole tube. That would be a heavy beast!

So how do you maintain it? Wouldn't it push tuning slide grease into the inside of the outer tube?

Honestly, not much need for it. Others may have different experiences, but if you're moving it when you get it in and out of the case then that's probably enough to keep it mobile.

[harrisonreed]

So how do you maintain it? Wouldn't it push tuning slide grease into the inside of the outer tube?

Honestly, not much need for it. Others may have different experiences, but if you're moving it when you get it in and out of the case then that's probably enough to keep it mobile.

Thanks. Yeah, I guess I'll just have to wait until I get it. Last time I tried that make of horn the TIS was just fine completely closed.

[FOSSIL]

Just think of it as having unsoldered oversleeves. A light application of regular tuning slide grease suffices. In 45 years of playing TIS trombones, I have never had issues with grease and slide lube mixing. The only practical issue is that the more you extend the tuning slide, the more you lose 7th position.

Chris

[hyperbolica]

I put the grease sparingly on the outside of the inner tubes of the outer slide assembly. If you keep the bearing surfaces clean and damage free, they don't need much lube.

Just make sure to re-engage the clamp mechanism whatever it is on the kind you're getting so it doesn't come apart when you're going fast.

Like Chris says, its just like unsoldered oversleeves, which is why they don't add as much weight as you think they would.

[Bonearzt]

The only weight added is the extra crossbrace needed to maintain the stability of the slide tubes.

Otherwise I 2nd Chris' advice.

[harrisonreed]

This is all great info. How does the stocking on the inner tube not catch or hitch on the lip created where the oversleeve meets the other half of the outer tube?

[timothy42b]

Hmm.

If you leave your main tuning slide all the way in anyway on a nonTIS horn, doesn't the same apply here? You would never move the TIS mechanism? So maintenance would be minimal.

Of course you don't have a main tuning slide on a TIS horn, IIRC, so you'd need to adjust for extreme heat/cold, but otherwise not.

(which probably means you can have all the advantages of a TIS horn just by pushing the main tuning slide in and adding some lead tape weight to the handslide)

[hyperbolica]

Here's another thread with some pictures. I took the TIS off my Kanstul to show how it comes apart. Also pictures of some of the different TIS mechanisms.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12378

[BGuttman]

This is all great info. How does the stocking on the inner tube not catch or hitch on the lip created where the oversleeve meets the other half of the outer tube?

The outer slide tube is the inner tube for the TIS. You never get the tuning portion anywhere near the stocking.

Note that if you are swabbing the inside of a TIS outer, you will be clearing any weeping of tuning slide lube into the outer. FWIW, I have had an Olds TIS tenor (c. 1925) for some 50 years and never had a problem with tuning slide lube contaminating the slide.

[PhilTrombone]

I have owned my 62H for over 4 decades, and have only disassembled it completely perhaps a dozen times to clean the tuning slides. Since a threaded rod/nuts holds the tuning slide in place, any nice lube will do. I prefer something less viscous than tuning slide lube. Usually it's simple vaseline.

One note I would sound. Unlike the Kanstul slide shown by Hyperbolica some TIS slides have no other brace, like my vintage 62H. I always clean/lube the entire slide with the tuning brace in place. When the tuning section is removed, the slide is unsupported and can easily be bent.

[harrisonreed]

Here's another thread with some pictures. I took the TIS off my Kanstul to show how it comes apart. Also pictures of some of the different TIS mechanisms.

https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=12378

Thanks for that. A picture is worth a thousand words. I had some completely different idea of how that all went together. I think Elow's picture has the male/female configuration reversed.

[harrisonreed]

Hmm.

If you leave your main tuning slide all the way in anyway on a nonTIS horn, doesn't the same apply here? You would never move the TIS mechanism? So maintenance would be minimal.

Of course you don't have a main tuning slide on a TIS horn, IIRC, so you'd need to adjust for extreme heat/cold, but otherwise not.

(which probably means you can have all the advantages of a TIS horn just by pushing the main tuning slide in and adding some lead tape weight to the handslide)

This is a good point, but I think I can address it. TIS is different from tuning with the slide crook pushed all the way in and just using the hand slide. The difference is that the bell is constructed differently, and does not have a double section of cylindrical tubing where the tuning legs would be. This causes the horn to play with, for me, improved partials, especially on altos. I accidentally discovered TIS on my 36H, although it's still not the real deal:

The horn I'm getting is the Shires Alto, which until very recently only comes with TIS. Their alto has the most consistent harmonic series of any horn I've ever played, and even if you use the TIS, all you're really doing is moving the handslide, so the partials stay lined up that way. On my 36H, before I got into simply tuning everything with the hand slide, the partials did not line very well, and their relationship to one another changed as you moved the tuning mechanism in or out. Extremely frustrating. After I got into "tuning-in-hand" (TIH) and pushing the tuning slide all the way in, I realized my alto played a lot better but was still pretty funky. And still flat compared to what I was getting with my tenors. Had the 36H tuning slide cut 1/2 an inch to address that, and the partials' tuning lined up even better. Ironically, it now looks exactly like what the 36Hs made in the early 90s looked like, with the Bb attachment extending farther out the back of the bell section. Haven't touched the tuning slide on the 36H since. The lesson I took away was that, yes, the shorter the tuning tubes are in the bell section, the better the (alto) trombone plays.

I confirmed it when I tried the shires alto a few years ago. Usually you wouldn't say that an alto trombone is the best trombone you've ever played. I'm sure if I ever get a chance to try a good TIS tenor, it will easily be better, because tenors are just more forgiving and better instruments. But currently, yeah that TIS alto was and is the best musical instrument I have ever played, despite the heavy slide. I asked once if they could make their Alto for me with no tuning mechanism, since I really liked the horn and was fine playing it with the TIS closed. They were like, "umm, yeah. We can, and others have asked too. But... is it really that detrimental to have the extra weight?". Now, having been in an extremely hot country like Japan, where even indoors the concert stages are lit with lightbulbs that get hotter than the surface of the sun, I have started using my tuning slides a bit, but not on my alto -- I just have to play really long on the slide when it gets hot to preserve the tuning tendencies. So, yes I think I would use TIS here if I had it.

As far as maintenance goes, even not using the TIS, yeah, I think I'd want to be taking it apart and cleaning it still, even if only once per year. Something expensive like that, I don't want to have to take to the tech to get unstuck.

[timothy42b]

I kind of like the idea of an alto without a main tuning slide, in theory anyway, as long as it is short enough to always get in tune. Using alternates to avoid 1st is a pain on alto.

I also wonder if you really need a water valve at all on an alto. The slide is short enough to just yank it off and dump. Would that reduce any disturbance in air flow enough to make a difference? Not sure, but if an Amado does, then having none at all should be even better.

[harrisonreed]

There was a guy on the old forum who had a tenor with a TIS bell, but no TIS. I want to say it was a Kanstul. Worked for him.