What compound for what

[Elow]

So i’m trying to find what buffing compound to use for what metal. I don’t do much buffing but if i do i always use some red type of compound because i see all the other guys do it. I’m too scared to test out the compounds on different types of metals and plating and i tried looking it up but had no luck. So who all knows the specific compounds for each metal? Specifically nickel plating and raw brass. Also the compound that helps buff lacquer off. Thanks

[Doug Elliott]

Tripoli is good for nearly everything. It's red but not like red rouge.

The compound you use is important, but the REALY important stuff is your buffing technique. Be constantly moving and changing angles, never stay in one place or one direction. Don't use a lot of pressure and always be aware of temperature, you don't want to overheat anything. If it gets too hot you're doing something wrong or being too aggressive. Too little or too much compound are both problems.

And don't hold anything at an angle that the wheel will catch and damage it or pull it out of your hands. Or throw it at you. Or wrap ANYTHING around your fingers - people have lost fingers that way.

[tbonesullivan]

If you are removing lacquer, I would honestly look into chemical means first. Buffing is not really the most efficient way to remove lacquer, and the end result will most likely not be good, as the areas that still have lacquer and those that don't still get buffed and have material removed.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Tbonesullivan is correct. You should not rely on buffing compounds to remove the lacquer. The lacquer should be removed by chemicals and manual means (steel wool or similar abrasives). I think that lacquer removal is a completely different topic and it should discussed separately.

I was taught that buffing brass and nickel-silver is done in a four-step process:

1. Hand sand the nicks and deeper scratches to remove them or "blend" the scratches with the metal around it.
2. Tripoli compound (this is the work horse that does most of the buffing).
3. Mid-grit compound.
4. Red rouge (sometimes called color buffing)

Addressing the deeper nicks and scratches by hand is definitely the smart way to start. This allows you to control precisely how much metal is coming off. You can determine how thin the metal is by pushing it with your finger. If you can see your finger through the metal with little or no pressure....don't sand any more!

While tripoli is the workhorse, it can be dangerous because it can remove metal very quickly. As Doug said, keep moving the item that you are buffing and don't stay at one spot. With tripoli, metal remnants will build up on your buffing wheel quickly, so you will need to rake the buffing wheel frequently.

Back in the old days, lime was the "go to" mid-grit compound that many shops used. It is no longer available, so people use any of the following: lime substitute, yellow rouge or green rouge. I have used yellow rouge as a mid-grit for quite a few years with great results. Metal remnants also accumulate on your buffing wheel with a mid-grit, but not as quickly. You will need to rake the buffing wheel, but not as often.

Red rouge (color buffing) is the final step. Red rouge actually puts more scratches on the metal than the other buffing compounds. Since the scratches are finer and closer together, it gives the appearance that the instrument has a higher gloss......an optical illusion of sorts.

Some tips:

*Buffing takes practice and experience. It is very easy to slip and your instrument part can be pulled away by the buffing wheel. If you are not careful, you could potentially do more harm than good! Use junk instruments to practice and always stay in the "safe buffing zone" of the buffing wheel.

*Use separate buffing wheels. Write "tripoli," "yellow" or "red rouge" on the center of the buffing wheels (remember, the wheel eventually wears down). Change the wheels faithfully when you change compounds....just one application of tripoli on a red rouge wheel will contaminate it and make it a "tripoli" wheel forever.

*Speed of the buffing wheel is very important and is a matter of preference. I worked in a shop that had a variety of speeds from 1600 rotations per minute up to 5000 RPMs. I never felt safe with the higher speed wheels but there were some techs that loved them. I currently use a wheel that is 1800 RPMs and I feel like I can do high-quality work and be safe with it.

*Lipstick on a Pig - I trained some new techs at my shop and the newbies always made the same mistake with buffing. You really cannot do repair work and then go directly to red rouge buffing. It just makes the dents, scars and scratches more shiny.....like putting lipstick on a pig. If you repair something and want to lacquer it, go through all of the buffing steps if you want it to look good.

*Use the proper compound for the job. There are many more compounds out there in the instrument repair world. Most notable are chrome buffing compounds (usually white) and compounds for buffing the plastic clarinet and saxophone mouthpieces.

*Be careful with silver and gold plating. It is usually best to polish silver (and especially gold) by hand. Occasionally, I use a red rouge on silver plating but I prefer to use a special chamois buffing wheel because it is softer. If the silver plating on a mouthpiece is really awful, I might use the yellow rouge for just a second and then move to red rouge.

[Elow]

Tip #1 would have been useful to read an hour ago... Thank god for instrument innovations. About to order new parts

[Doug Elliott]

Buffing RPM is also closely related to wheel diameter. For slow RPM like 1800 you need to use a larger wheel like 10 or 12 inches, and for faster RPM like 3600 you need to use smaller wheels like 8 inches or less. Those diameters might be a bit on the big side but that's where I start and let them wear down. New wheels throw off a lot of threads right away.

[tbonesullivan]

This is when I tell people to watch the episode of home improvement where Tim leaves on a lathe with a wooden piece on it, and stands in front of it, which then rips his shirt off. Machine tools can be very dangerous, and they can easily send things flying, including body parts.

This is one of the reasons I pretty much stay away from them. If I need a lacquer touchup, I hand buff the area and spray it. No reason to get a buffing arbor for something that small.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Why are you ordering new parts? Get out the dent ball set/dent hammer and remove those dents. Learn the skill of dent removal so that you can rebuild instruments, no matter what condition they are in!

[Elow]

Why are you ordering new parts? Get out the dent ball set/dent hammer and remove those dents. Learn the skill of dent removal so that you can rebuild instruments, no matter what condition they are in!

I have, but the angle is all messed up in two spots and i tried just pushing a little a couple times and it completely crunched one side. Plus the parts shouldnt be too expensive. I also don’t have anyone to teach me, they teach me what’s required for my job and that’s it. I would love to learn more, but i can’t

[Dennis]

Why are you ordering new parts? Get out the dent ball set/dent hammer and remove those dents. Learn the skill of dent removal so that you can rebuild instruments, no matter what condition they are in!

I also don’t have anyone to teach me, they teach me what’s required for my job and that’s it. I would love to learn more, but i can’t

I'm going to second Brian's suggestion. We learn manual skills by doing them. What you have now are practice pieces for dent balls and hammer. The best practicing is with someone who has the skills looking over your shoulder.

As to having anyone to teach you, have you asked? You might have to get your lessons off the clock (but maybe not--that will depend on the boss), but most techs I've known are willing to teach the skills.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Thanks Dennis! Yes Elow.....not only will you save a TON of money in your lifetime, you will take great PRIDE in your work.

I'm sitting in my brass "man cave" right now, staring at about 45-50 instruments stacked neatly in my instrument-collection closet. These instruments are fantastic players and that is why I chose to keep them instead of sell them. I built every single one of these instruments, so I guess you could call all of them "custom instruments." I am very PROUD of these instruments for two reasons: 1. I made them. 2. Many of these instruments were constructed from used parts that were dented, scraped, smashed, twisted and some were even run over by vehicles.

Those dented parts are your pathway to learning a great trade. Ask questions, watch others do the repairs, try to do it yourself and see what happens. It takes time and patience, but it is definitely worth it.