Cleaning outer slide tubes on nickel alloy tubes?

[harrisonreed]

I have gotten really good at cleaning and getting brass slides to work really well. I use Wright's brass cream first, and then the slide dr. application (they're like some sort of car polish) until no corrosion is left in the outer tubes. Then they work unbelievably well.

Do the same products work on a nickel alloy outer slide, like you get on the 3B? We just got a 3BF that is great except for the scratchy slide. I just wanted to make sure that there wasn't a big difference between polishing this type of outer tube and brass tubes that I'm used to.

[BGuttman]

The slide tube alloy is a nickel-copper alloy. The stuff you are using should work fine. Though the general tenor I see is that nickel tubes tend to be more scratchy than brass, even when well lubed and polished.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Here is "The Difference in Action Between Brass and Nickel Trombone Slides" explanation that was given to me many years ago. It has always made sense to me and nobody has been able to convince me that the logic is wrong.......

The modern trombone inner slide is typically nickel that is plated with chrome. Chrome is extremely hard and essentially polishes the the inside of your outer slide tubes. The more you use your slide, the finer the polish. That is why a trombone slide that is used frequently for many years (if it is dent-free, aligned well and cleaned regularly) will usually work extremely well.

Yellow brass (usually 70% copper and 30% zinc) is a soft, gooey and porous metal that is used on many outer slides. Since it is much softer than the chrome plating on the inner slide, it polishes quickly when rubbed against the chrome. For this reason, yellow brass slides are faster to transition from sluggish to slick when used frequently by a trombonist. Yellow brass is also easy and fast to polish with agents like Wright's Brass Cream or Brasso. The downfall of yellow brass is that is it fast to tarnish. This explains why many yellow brass slides will go from outstanding to very sluggish when they are not used much.....especially if the slide is stored with moisture in it.

Nickel-silver is also a brass alloy that has nickel mixed in. It is not as soft, less gooey and less porous. Thus, when rubbed against the chrome plating, it takes longer or more repetitions of friction to polish. For this reason, it takes nickel-silver slides longer to get to that sweet point where the slide action is outstanding. It also takes nickel-silver slides longer to get rid of those "scratchy" sounds. However, it takes nickel-silver a little longer to tarnish. You might notice that nickel-silver slides are slower to become sluggish when the trombone is not used as much.

Using Wright's Brass Cream or Brasso on the King 3B will work. It will require a little more rubbing/friction and more repetition because the metal is harder and will take longer to get the mirror finish. Once you have it polished up, it should hold that shine longer than yellow brass if the trombone slide is not being used.

The Slide Doctor "Slickcoat Sealant" essentially fills in those porous holes in the metal to create a temporary smoother surface that has less friction when rubbed against the inner slide. Slickcoat Sealant will also work on the nickel-silver slide. However, it will make slightly less difference because the microscopic holes in nickel-silver are smaller and less frequent (remember....nickel-silver is less porous than yellow brass).

[harrisonreed]

Thank you both!

[ssking2b]

Don't use Brasso! It leaves behind some residue. The Wrights washes away clean!

[Elow]

Don't use Brasso! It leaves behind some residue.

And it stinks

[BGuttman]

Don't use Brasso! It leaves behind some residue.

And it stinks

It has organic solvents to help deal with oily residues, hence the smell. Plus, the abrasive in it is a little coarser than Wright's so it tends to feel grittier if you don't get it all out.

[noordinaryjoe]

Is Wright's Copper Cream what is being referred to? I've found the brass polish, but the cream doesn't seem to come in a brass formula. Thanks! -Joe

[CalgaryTbone]

I think you want the Wright's Brass Polish - I could be wrong but I think the previous poster just made a mistake in the name. I've always used the Polish anyway. Don't use too much, and rinse thoroughly when you're done. It is one of the few brass polishers that is water soluble.

Jim Scott

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Any brass polish or cleaner is going to stay in the nooks and crannies of the outer slide for a while. It doesn't matter what brand it is. It doesn't matter if it is water soluble or not. It doesn't matter if it is called a polish, a cream or a sealant. Yes, Brasso is slightly more aggressive. I use a variety of polishing agents depending on the condition of the slide. I have found that Brasso does a excellent job of cleaning those outer slides that are really bad with a lot of built-up tarnish.

If you use any type of brass polish or cleaner on your slide, expect to do the following cleaning cycle at least a dozen times to remove the polishing agent......lubricate, play a while, rinse with water and swab.....lubricate, play a while, rinse with water and swab..... There really are no short cuts to achieving great slide action. It takes a lot of elbow grease, perseverance and repetition.

When I clean, repair and align a trombone slide in my shop, I always do about 7 or 8 rinse/swab cycles before I consider it ready for the customer. I tell my customers to do the cleaning cycle (lubricate, play a while, rinse with water and swab) twice a week for at least a month in order to continue getting the grit and polishing agents out of the slide. Many of those who follow my directions contact me after a month or two because they are so pleased that their slide continues to get better and better. Again.....there are no short cuts to achieving great slide action.

[harrisonreed]

I use "great slide" after brass polish, and never had to do any of the stuff you're talking about. That stuff rocks.

I didn't know if brass polish was what you needed for nickel slides, but it sounds like it is.

[ssking2b]

Check out the Slide Doctor web site at
http://www.slidedr.com
You will get the idea there. It is in fact Wright's Brass Polish, and its a white liquid. I can only find it now on AMAZON. And yes, clean clean clean is the solution to getting all the yuck out of the slide!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Hey Harrisonreed,

I mean no disrespect to you, but I'm trying to figure how what your situation is. When you state that your "never had to do any of the stuff you're talking about," are you saying that you never see any black residue on your swab? I'm wandering if you are swabbing your slides correctly. Even the "Great Slide" stuff (made by the Slide Doctor) leaves a lot of black residue in the outer slide that takes MANY, MANY swab repetitions to remove.

I used "Great Slide" on my Conn slide about 11-12 days ago (I did both the pink polish and the green sealant). I have been swabbing it daily....some days swabbing it two or three times. I am still seeing considerable black residue on my swab after cleaning the slide. I expect to see that residue for at least another two or three weeks until it gradually diminishes to nothing or almost nothing. Every time I remove a little residue, the slide is just slightly better than before. After about a month, I try to leave the slightest bit of residue in the slide because that serves as a buffing agent that continues to polish the slide as I play on it.

If you are not seeing this black residue, I'm wondering if you are not making your swabs tight enough in the outer slides. If you are not swabbing all of that polish residue out repeatedly, your slide is probably only achieving half of its potential. Just looking out for you buddy!

Ssking2b,

Thanks for sharing those Slide Doctor videos. You will notice in the videos that they use a tremendous amount of the cleaning and sealing agents on their swabs. WAY TOO MUCH! They probably do that because it encourages you to buy it more frequently. They also make it appear that you swab a couple of times and the slide is good to go. In reality, that should be the first swab of dozens. The slide will start to gum up after about 10 minutes of playing. As I stated before.....there are no short cuts to achieving good slide action. Keep swabbing over and over again!

[bbocaner]

My theory on the black stuff after polishing isn't that it's polish that doesn't wash off and continues to come off for a week or so afterwards, it's that having exposed a layer of fresh brass it takes a while for that fresh brass to oxidize or otherwise get sealed away so that it isn't reacting with the other stuff that gets in slides to create black goop.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yes, the black residue is a mixture of the polishing compound and the millions of metallic particles that were formerly the tarnish in the outer slide. Any dent work or rubbing on a slide mandrel will create the same metallic dust. When this residue (polishing compound + metallic particles) combines with the slide lubricant, it eventually becomes a paste and actually gives you a slower slide action. That's the reason you must swab dozens of times after any cleaning, polishing or tech work on a slide.

The same thing for new slides.....there is a lot of gunk in there from the assembly and buffing process. I built two slides last week.....a Conn bass slide and a Bach .547-562 dual bore nickel. I have been playing on them constantly and swabbing them a couple times a day and there is still a lot of residue in them. Those slides get better every day, but they will be amazing in about 14 days, when I plan to deliver the horns. I always build the slide first on a custom trombone because I can do the lubricate, play and swab, lubricate, play and swab cycle many times while building the bell section.

If you are wondering....I attach the newly built slide to one of my personal trombones while building the bell section. And yes, I do a final quick chemical cleaning of the slide before packaging the trombone for the customer.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, if you follow the instructions, it says "repeat until no black residue remains". I have a whole stack of sheets that I go through until it's clean, but I'm not having to go back and do it again for days after I'm done.

I think the trick is getting the sheet REALLY snug inside the side tubes (which the instructions also say to do). That way you're actually polishing the slide and not moving around the polish without actually doing anything.

I have a FAT cleaning rod that helps with that.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Even if you swab extremely thoroughly after the Slide Doctor treatment....if you play on the trombone for a couple of hours and swab, you will see plenty of black residue show up on your swab. This will happen for at least a dozen repetitions. The normal motions of playing a trombone will loosen the polishing compound and metallic particles, and it takes weeks to completely clear out a slide. The metal in a trombone slide has more nooks and crannies than 10,000 English muffins!

If you think that swabbing a few times immediately following the Doctor Slide treatment completes the job, I think you are not unlocking the full potential of your slide. Try swabbing after two hours of playing and repeat the process after every two hours of playing about 10-12 times. Yes it is labor-intensive, but I guarantee that you will thank me for the advice.

[Elow]

When you say swab how many times do you go in and out? I always go until the slide gets pretty hot.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

When I swab, I don't use the conventional cheese cloth. I used that for years when I worked in a retail store shop and found it to be less effective than my current method. With cheese cloth, it is hard to see how effective your swabbing is.

In my current system, I use white T-shirt material. I like the T-shirt material because the fabric allows you to see exactly how much residue you are pulling out of the trombone slide. I have three different sizes, pre-cut and sorted in piles. The sizes are: 1. Small bore inner slide, 2. Small bore outer slide/large bore inner slide(same size material), and 3. Large bore tenor/bass outer slide. The sizes of fabric range from 1.5" x 6" (smallest) to 4" x 8" (largest). I do not use a long sheet of fabric.....I prefer to wrap the fabric around the tip of the cleaning rod and use a Q-tip shaped swab. This method allows me to match the width of the swab exactly to the slide. I know there are people who say that you should never put in a swab without the tail of the swab hanging out of the slide, but I am very careful to thread the eye of the cleaning rod in a way that it is impossible to lose the swab in the slide. I have been doing it this way for 25+ years and never left a swab in a slide.

I usually rub the swab in the slide for about 30-40 seconds, pull it out, wrap it so that fresh fabric is on the outside and do another 30-40 seconds on the same slide. I shift the swab so that I am using the other end and do the same double procedure on the other slide. Many times I use a flexible HW brass saver swab as well in order to clean the crook.

I'm sure if we got a thread about swabbing going, there would be several different fabrics and several different techniques that people prefer. I have settled on this technique because it allows me to see exactly how much residue I am removing (the T-shirt fabric makes it very clear). No matter what material or technique, the important thing is to keep that slide clean!

[Elow]

I find it pretty easy to see the gunk.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Yes, you can see the residue on cheese cloth.......as that picture clearly demonstrates. That particular slide was rather dirty and will need many more play and swab cycles. When you swab a slide that is getting closer to perfection, the T-shirt material will show the minute amounts of residue better than the cheese cloth.

[ssking2b]

Thanks for sharing those Slide Doctor videos. You will notice in the videos that they use a tremendous amount of the cleaning and sealing agents on their swabs. WAY TOO MUCH! They probably do that because it encourages you to buy it more frequently. They also make it appear that you swab a couple of times and the slide is good to go. In reality, that should be the first swab of dozens. The slide will start to gum up after about 10 minutes of playing. As I stated before.....there are no short cuts to achieving good slide action. Keep swabbing over and over again!

You have to start with the WRIGHT'S Brass Polish to get as much yuucckk as possible out of the slide before you use the Great Slide stuff. And then clean, clean, clean until slide performance is great! Try using Dawn dish washing liquid when you clean after the WRIGHTS, and after both applications of Great Slide. And yes, you don't need quite as much as in the videos - that's also for example. I only use the Great Slide once a year on all 9 of my horns, so Ray doesn't make a ton of $$ from me...but I highly recommend the product!

[Basie1955]

A notable tech told me to lay off the Wright’s.
I’d like to get your thoughts on this. He said one cause of a rough slide was mineral deposits like little stalagmites. The Wrights doesn’t dissolve those. The Wright’s actually removes the metal which only makes the stalagmites even more pronounced. So over time the brass cleaner will make things worse.

[johntarr]

Thanks for sharing those Slide Doctor videos. You will notice in the videos that they use a tremendous amount of the cleaning and sealing agents on their swabs. WAY TOO MUCH! They probably do that because it encourages you to buy it more frequently. They also make it appear that you swab a couple of times and the slide is good to go. In reality, that should be the first swab of dozens. The slide will start to gum up after about 10 minutes of playing. As I stated before.....there are no short cuts to achieving good slide action. Keep swabbing over and over again!

You have to start with the WRIGHT'S Brass Polish to get as much yuucckk as possible out of the slide before you use the Great Slide stuff. And then clean, clean, clean until slide performance is great! Try using Dawn dish washing liquid when you clean after the WRIGHTS, and after both applications of Great Slide. And yes, you don't need quite as much as in the videos - that's also for example. I only use the Great Slide once a year on all 9 of my horns, so Ray doesn't make a ton of $$ from me...but I highly recommend the product!

I’ve seen the Dr. Slide videos and want to clean and polish my slides more thoroughly. Because I live in Europe, shipping from the USA is very expensive so I’m wondering if there’s a common polishing product that will do the same thing as the Great Slide products. I’d be happy to buy from them, just that it’d be very costly.

Thanks for any suggestions,

John

[spencercarran]

Same procedure works. The nickel outers on my Holton are still going great ~15 years after the (now retired) Slide Doctor worked on them, with the standard cleaning procedure of Wright's.

[Mamaposaune]

Wondering what others think of the break-in period, whether it's with a brand-new slide, one that's been repaired, or one that has been sitting for a long time (especially if it was put away dirty) and crud that lurks in the outers. Everyone here seems to be in agreement (though the exact techniques vary) that the tubes have to be swabbed out frequently to remove said crud.
But what if it isn't? I'll bet there are many new slides (especially h.s. kids) that are rarely, if ever, cleaned out properly. My question is: does neglect permanently damage a slide? Does the grit etch, or scratch, the inners or outers to the point that it will never be smooth, no matter how it is maintained later in it's life?
I think the answer is yes.

[BGuttman]

Wondering what others think of the break-in period, whether it's with a brand-new slide, one that's been repaired, or one that has been sitting for a long time (especially if it was put away dirty) and crud that lurks in the outers. Everyone here seems to be in agreement (though the exact techniques vary) that the tubes have to be swabbed out frequently to remove said crud.
But what if it isn't? I'll bet there are many new slides (especially h.s. kids) that are rarely, if ever, cleaned out properly. My question is: does neglect permanently damage a slide? Does the grit etch, or scratch, the inners or outers to the point that it will never be smooth, no matter how it is maintained later in it's life?
I think the answer is yes.

The answer, as always, is "it depends".

If the kid doesn't play right after eating or drinking sweetened drinks, the buildup of crud will be much slower.

If the kid practices on the beach in a windstorm, the crud buildup will be faster.

Food crud is usually able to be softened with water and cleaned out with a brush.

Grit from polishing or blown sand is much harder to remove. Especially if the particles get ground into the soft brass (or nickel-silver alloy), Grit from drying out hard water deposits is much the same.

To remove embedded grit from a slide you need to remove a fair amount of brass, which can make for leakage problems. Not removing the deposit results in scratchy slide movement.

I've seen flex hone treatments used to flatten out the inside of an outer slide. Not for the faint of heart, nor ones with no patience.

[LetItSlide]

I recently took a nickel-brass (I call it nickel-brass, not nickel-silver) slide from very scratchy to quiet. Most of the above discussion applies to the experience. In addition to many repetitions of swabbing, refreshing the cheesecloth often, I also worked the slide rapidly -- a lot. It's up to each trombone owner how vigorously you want to do that. Obviously you don't want to bend or break anything. But that action, rubbing the nickel-brass along the chrome, is very effective in getting the slide quiet and smooth, assuming there aren't issues such as dents, bends, misalignment/skew, out-of-roundness, burrs, gouges, or debris.

I think a lot of trombonists have slides with many miles on them, and the action is very good. I don't know how much playing it takes to wear down the chrome. I've never done that on any horn. I think the metal lasts for a great many hours of excellent playability before wearing out.

[ghmerrill]

Because I live in Europe, shipping from the USA is very expensive so I’m wondering if there’s a common polishing product that will do the same thing as the Great Slide products.

There has to be something like this available to you locally. Basically what's being talked about here falls under the description of "non-embedding lapping compounds" used widely in industry. You just have to find a good one for you, and there should be industrial supply sources near you that can provide them.

For years, what I've been using is different grits of Timesaver lapping compounds (https://ws2coating.com/timesaver-lapping-compounds/) specifically for non-ferrous metals that I picked up i at an auction at an old machine manufacturing company in North Carolina that was going out of business. If you contact a machine shop near you and tell them what you intend to use them for, they can probably refer you to a supplier, or at least point you in an appropriate direction.

Here's another possibility: https://www.brownells.at/GARNET-LAPPING ... -083047005. And their JB Bore Cleaning Compound is a very mild abrasive I've used on brass and copper. However, you might actually want something not quite so mild as the J-B compound. But, again, if you can contact a metalworker or machinist and tell them what you're looking for, they can probably refer you to a source.

[biggiesmalls]

I'm gonna say two dirty words here: Lava soap.

Yes, it contains pumice. Yes, it's aggressive. Yes, it works.

Two experienced and respected slide techs I know use Lava soap to polish the insides of practically every set of challenged outers that come through their shops, preceded by a 30 minute white vinegar soak, with a denatured alcohol rinse after the Lava polishing.

I can't argue with their results: hands down the best slide action I have ever experienced.

I use a fine cheese grater to shave off small bits of soap from the bar of Lava, then dissolve with water until I get a thin paste.

[hornbuilder]

What are you using to work the Lava soap into the tubes?

I used to use Lava soap in the old fashioned Texas Flush process. It does a nice job, on the areas that you can reach with the brush the Lava is massaged with. But you cannot get at areas that you can't reach with the brush...

Correct chemical cleaning process, followed by polishing with the correct type of compound gives a considerably better result, IMO.

Be aware that Wrights brass polish also contains ammonia, which you don't want to be using on brass.

[biggiesmalls]

What are you using to work the Lava soap into the tubes?

I use a nylon-bristled snake brush, sized appropriately for the bore. I dip the bristles in the Lava soap slurry, then work the snake back and forth quickly a dozen or more times inside the tube, just for the first few inches. I then repeat the process, adding more soap for the next few inches, until I make it all the way down into the crook, giving extra attention to the crook and the last few inches of tubing down around the spit valve. If the rinse looks nasty (with new-to-me vintage horns it often does), I will repeat the process until the green/brown/black stuff stops coming out with the rinse water.

I'm aware of the true "Texas flush" brush-on-a-drill technique, but I feel more comfortable just taking my time and doing it manually.

[chouston3]

What are you using to work the Lava soap into the tubes?

I used to use Lava soap in the old fashioned Texas Flush process. It does a nice job, on the areas that you can reach with the brush the Lava is massaged with. But you cannot get at areas that you can't reach with the brush...

Correct chemical cleaning process, followed by polishing with the correct type of compound gives a considerably better result, IMO.

Be aware that Wrights brass polish also contains ammonia, which you don't want to be using on brass.

What is the correct chemical cleaning process? I have never understood what this means. A local shop I went to uses dawn dish detergent and baking soda.

What do you use on brass outer slide tubes?

[hornbuilder]

Understanding the procedures and products used to properly clean an instrument is a big part of what you pay for with professional repair techs. I'm not going to outline the correct order/procedure for chemical cleaning here, because there are products/techniques that are not DIY applicable. Dawn and baking soda is not something that I'm aware of as being useful. FWIW.

[marccromme]

Because I live in Europe, shipping from the USA is very expensive so I’m wondering if there’s a common polishing product that will do the same thing as the Great Slide products. I’d be happy to buy from them, just that it’d be very costly.

Silvo - essentially the same thing as Brasso, just with a finer grain of polishing. Buy it any place you can get Brasso - in DK in any hardware store ...

[chouston3]

What questions can I ask a tech to make sure they doing correct chemical cleaning and not doing something like dawn and baking soda?

I live in a backwater river town so I will most likely have to drive somewhere or ship my instrument to access a good tech.

[hornbuilder]

You can ask the tech where they trained, and if they're a member of NAPBIRT.

[ghmerrill]

You should also be able to ask for direct testimony from other players in your area (that I presume you play with?), or from local instrumental music teachers in the schools -- who need to get those school instruments repaired on a regular basis.

[johntarr]

Because I live in Europe, shipping from the USA is very expensive so I’m wondering if there’s a common polishing product that will do the same thing as the Great Slide products. I’d be happy to buy from them, just that it’d be very costly.

Silvo - essentially the same thing as Brasso, just with a finer grain of polishing. Buy it any place you can get Brasso - in DK in any hardware store ...

Tack så mycket!