Moving trigger from thumb to paddle on tenor

[aasavickas]

I have seen a few customized horns where they had the thumb trigger moved to a paddle trigger. I think Scot Hartman had one.

It seems to be more ergonomically smart to me. The modern trombone, especially the bass, is quite cumbersome which explains why so many people use gizmos like a bullet brace or paddle brace. I can't hold my bass trombone for more than about 5 minutes before my hand hurts and starts causing tension. I use a paddle hand support on my bass and bullet brace style thing on my tenor but don't need anything on my smaller straight horns.

It seems that if you moved the thumb to a paddle trigger, then the thumb could support the horn with the left hand and let a smaller finger hit the trigger. I'm surprised no instrument makers make tenors with a trigger this way.

I might as my repair tech guy what it would cost and if he thinks it would be a good idea.

[Elow]

It would probably be easier to buy an ergo bone. If you struggle holding a tenor maybe its something like your posture or grip.

[aasavickas]

I don't struggle with holding the tenor, I just find it more comfortable to use it with a gizmo like many folks do.

I'm just curious if other folks have made this mod and how it worked out.

I think the ergo bone is good for certain issues. However, I think it would cause a few problems of its own that I'm not interested in.

[mrdeacon]

What?.... OP in your first post you're using words that aren't really vernacular... What exactly are you describing? I can't even imagine it.... I think I might know what you mean?.... What's a paddle trigger? What's a paddle brace?

Are you describing moving the main bell brace to help support the hand like on a King? Switching the standard first valve trigger to a second valve style?

[Elow]

What?.... OP in your first post you're using words that aren't really vernacular... What exactly are you describing? I can't even imagine it.... I think I might know what you mean?.... What's a paddle trigger? What's a paddle brace?

Are you describing moving the main bell brace to help support the hand like on a King? Switching the standard first valve trigger to a second valve style?

I think he means activating the f attachment with a bass style Gb lever.

[brassmedic]

What?.... OP in your first post you're using words that aren't really vernacular... What exactly are you describing? I can't even imagine it.... I think I might know what you mean?.... What's a paddle trigger? What's a paddle brace?

Are you describing moving the main bell brace to help support the hand like on a King? Switching the standard first valve trigger to a second valve style?

I agree. Lose the word "paddle". You're describing nothing.

[aasavickas]

I suppose I should have been more specific when describing the question.

As much as I appreciate the fascinating discussion about semantics, that doesn't really address the question.

For what it is worth, when I wrote about a thumb trigger, I meant a valve operated by a thumb on a trigger. And when I wrote that a finger would operate a paddle, I mean that a persons finger would operate a paddle style valve lever. Now that that tautology has cleared it up, maybe we can address the question?

Why bother posting a comment when it was very clear what I was asking just to give me grief about my "vernacular"?

When you nit pick words pretending to be confused, you are "describing nothing". Next time, lose the comment that contributes nothing.

[BGuttman]

It is possible to create a setup like the finger paddle on a double trigger bass. It's a matter of appropriate parts and money. Not a task for an average repairman; you'll need a good tech. We have a few on this Forum and there are a few others out there.

You might also look look into the Haynor Grip.

[btone]

Perhaps the OP should consider exercising a little humility and being less dismissive when experienced people try to offer constructive criticism. We lost a lot of seasoned players who shared invaluable knowledge and insight in the transition from Trombone Forum to Trombone Chat and are poorer for it. We are lucky to still have mrdeacon and brassmedic. They were not trying to be snarky, they were making a good point about how imprecise use of language can make what one writes meaningless.

[aasavickas]

I disagree. The folks may be "experienced players" but being rude and obtuse in order to correct somebody's word choice doesn't help the forum or anyone else.

They don't know who they are talking to and being rude to a stranger right out of the gate rather than post something useful doesn't help the forum. Also, presuming the person posting is an idiot is a big reason why people don't post stuff and leave.

Maybe these guys are friends of yours. Maybe they should exercise a little humility and be less rude when not offering any useful advice. This isn't the first time an "experienced player" has been a jerk for no good reason.

This is why we can't have nice things on the internet folks.

You are about to lose another experienced player due to your friends attitude. Maybe tell your experienced player friends to lighten up.

[Elow]

I disagree. The folks may be "experienced players" but being rude and obtuse in order to correct somebody's word choice doesn't help the forum or anyone else.

They don't know who they are talking to and being rude to a stranger right out of the gate rather than post something useful doesn't help the forum. Also, presuming the person posting is an idiot is a big reason why people don't post stuff and leave.

Maybe these guys are friends of yours. Maybe they should exercise a little humility and be less rude when not offering any useful advice. This isn't the first time an "experienced player" has been a jerk for no good reason.

This is why we can't have nice things on the internet folks.

You are about to lose another experienced player due to your friends attitude. Maybe tell your experienced player friends to lighten up.

Chill. You should have put more thought before you posted. Your title is a little hard to understand.

[WilliamLang]

thought it was a good question and easy to understand, personally. would love to know if anyone has experience moving a trigger like this - could be a useful option to some people.

[mrdeacon]

I guess I should respond.

OP no offense was meant and sorry if you felt I was being rude. I happen to work in a business environment where if someone is ordering something and if myself or my coworkers don't understand what is being ordered the customer won't receive what they need. It's better to get the job done right the first time. Apologies if I came off in anyway obtuse or overly blunt. It's the internet and with text things get mixed up sometimes.

I hope that clears the air and we can get back to the topic on hand.

[BGuttman]

Just so you understand, aasavickas, this mod you are asking for will require some custom work. Possibly even major modification to how the rotor works. You are asking that the F valve setup be replaced with the type of setup used for a Gb indie valve. Concept is good. Execution is way beyond what most techs can handle (but we have a few here who could do the job). Expect to drop a nice piece of change to get this done. Provided you can get one of the elite techs to take on the challenge.

One issue with your idea: even if you move the actuator to a finger, you will still need the bullet brace for most F-attachment trombones.

Have you looked at a Holton TR-150, older King 4B, or King 3B? On these horns the F-attachment is designed to have the bell brace between thumb and forefinger and you reach around the brace to press the F-trigger. There are lots of players who decry this setup although I love it on my King 7B.

[brassmedic]

Just so you understand, aasavickas, this mod you are asking for will require some custom work. Possibly even major modification to how the rotor works. You are asking that the F valve setup be replaced with the type of setup used for a Gb indie valve. Concept is good. Execution is way beyond what most techs can handle (but we have a few here who could do the job).

Good luck getting anyone to do it after you alienated everyone. LOL.

[LeTromboniste]

My two cents on the question. For me the middle finger trigger configuration is a big part of why bass trombone has such poor ergonomics. I wouldn't want that on a tenor. The main problem of any instrument with an F thumb-trigger is that you need to support the instrument with your fingers only and not in the axis of your arm, so you end up with lots of tork on your wrist and it's hard to keep a relaxed grip. Shifting the trigger to a finger would make things worst (your thumb still wouldn't be helping the grip and now you've lost one of the fingers that are supporting the instrument). I think any form of thumb support that allows the weight of the instrument to rest on your hand in the axis of your forearm is the most obvious solution (Greenhoe thumbrest, Bullet brace, etc) and entirely gets rid of the problem (at least on tenor). You could switch to a finger trigger, but you'd still need the thumb support (assuming you need or prefer one in the first place).

For what it's worth, I had trouble understanding the question too. I got what I think you meant at first, a bass 2nd trigger-style trigger but for the F valve? But then when you started saying that you can't hold your bass for more than 5 minutes, I wasn't so sure (if the bass ergonomics are worst for you than tenor, why would you want to convert a tenor to those same bass ergonomics?), and your use of "paddle support" later completely lost me, I have no idea what you meant by that. I don't know, people here aren't usually particularly rude and generally try to be helpful. If someone suggests rephrasing your question because they're not sure what you meant, maybe get off the high horse and don't get defensive about it if you want to be helped...

[BGuttman]

Just so you understand, aasavickas, this mod you are asking for will require some custom work. Possibly even major modification to how the rotor works. You are asking that the F valve setup be replaced with the type of setup used for a Gb indie valve. Concept is good. Execution is way beyond what most techs can handle (but we have a few here who could do the job).

Good luck getting anyone to do it after you alienated everyone. LOL.

I think the thing that is putting ogg the techs is at the way the query was posed implied that the poster couldn't make his desires known and might not like the result after some serious surgery was performed. I think we know what he is looking for, but it may not solve his problem (ergonomics). I really think he needs to try a Holton TR-150 and see if that works (or a King 3B-F).

[Amconk]

I’m curious what was difficult to understand? I understood perfectly what he wanted. I’ve always called the second trigger on a bass a “paddle” trigger. So has most of the other bass trombonists I’ve worked with. Maybe it’s a regional vernacular?

Really shouldn’t be too difficult a mod for a competent tech. Existing parts could be easily adapted, and the linkage fabbed. No different than splitting the triggers on a duo Gravis or something similar.

[elmsandr]

Returning to the topic, Scott Hartman’s lever was not done that way out of any intentional need and desire for a finger operated valve. It was because they put the Thayer on a Straight 42 and didn’t swap the hand slide receiver or move the main bell brace. No room to get a thumb lever in there. After playing that horn for a long time, pretty sure he’s been on more conventional valves with thumb levers for the last few years.

That lever was really cool, however. The motion was not like a Bass lever, it moved in roughly the same plane as the hand slide, you just pulled it towards the hand slide receiver with a finger. A way better lever for the F valve Thayer.

Cheers,
Andy

[AlexMcMahon]

I have just this setup on my Bach 36. I had it made with a Gb valve with middle finger activation like the second valve on my bass. It’s removable and swappable with a regular F valve and straight pipe. I had the valve section fabricated by Rob Phillips at Buckeye Brass in Columbus, OH.

[mrdeacon]

I have just this setup on my Bach 36. I had it made with a Gb valve with middle finger activation like the second valve on my bass. It’s removable and swappable with a regular F valve and straight pipe. I had the valve section fabricated by Rob Phillips at Buckeye Brass in Columbus, OH.

Do you have a photo? How do you hold it?

As Bruce mentioned you've got one of two options if you swap the linkage like that... put a bullet brace or Ax handle style thing to hold it or move the brace up like on a King or Holton TR150...

If you did have the brace moved up I'm very keen to see the work! That's not an easy job.

[AlexMcMahon]

I tried to add a link with an edit, but it must not have went through. Here is the album:

There is a Shires thumb brace/bar hard soldered where the F valve would be. It keeps the bell braces in the normal spots without needing a bent brace.

[Amconk]

I tried to add a link with an edit, but it must not have went through. Here is the album:

There is a Shires thumb brace/bar hard soldered where the F valve would be. It keeps the bell braces in the normal spots without needing a bent brace.

Nice clean setup! I like it!

[AlexMcMahon]

I had it set up this way because I found I liked using my 2nd valve on my bass in place of the 1st valve for the F overtone series as it puts notes more in the direction of the next note. Keeping the middle finger actuator in this valve section was just a preference so I wouldn’t develop a muscle/pitch memory for the thumb valve. I play with the horn angled so that the weight is supported on the thumb brace and gives my middle finger plenty of freedom to activate the valve.

[mrdeacon]

I tried to add a link with an edit, but it must not have went through. Here is the album:

There is a Shires thumb brace/bar hard soldered where the F valve would be. It keeps the bell braces in the normal spots without needing a bent brace.

That's some great work!