Yikes

[slipperyjoe]

I give up, most of us are either too stubborn or stupid to change our mind. What’s done is done, and i’m happy. All this post has done is spread even more hate. I’m sorry if i was rude, but i think they took the right action.

You haven't been rude at all.

[mwpfoot]

We must root out racism in America and the institutions that uphold it. Smirk all you want that the path to justice and equality for all requires, yes, intolerance of racism. What incredible irony! chuckle the racists and their enablers.

If your hateful posts on social media come back to bite you in the ass professionally, there is exactly one person to blame: you. Plead your case with your employer. Get like-minded individuals to write letters. Hire an attorney. Good luck with that.

What about due process?! This orchestra appears to be following it.

What about freedom of speech?! The apparently dismissed person remains free to say whatever they want.

If future accountability for your past posts is potentially a problem, check yourself: Ya just might be a racist. Best thing for you to do is delete that stuff and never post it again. Many of us who have quietly suffered through your hateful rants and "jokes" aren't having it anymore.

[harrisonreed]

We must root out racism in America and the institutions that uphold it. Smirk all you want that the path to justice and equality for all requires, yes, intolerance of racism. What incredible irony! chuckle the racists and their enablers.

If your hateful posts on social media come back to bite you in the ass professionally, there is exactly one person to blame: you. Plead your case with your employer. Get like-minded individuals to write letters. Hire an attorney. Good luck with that.

What about due process?! This orchestra appears to be following it.

What about freedom of speech?! The apparently dismissed person remains free to say whatever they want.

If future accountability for your past posts is potentially a problem, check yourself: Ya just might be a racist. Best thing for you to do is delete that stuff and never post it again. Many of us who have quietly suffered through your hateful rants and "jokes" aren't having it anymore.

You're referring to some hypothetical "you" here, right?

[mwpfoot]

You're referring to some hypothetical "you" here, right?

Yes.

[Doug Elliott]

"The guy who converts people from the KKK" is Daryl Davis, who happens to be a jazz, blues, and R&B piano player here in the DC area. I've worked with him but I don't really know him. His Wikipedia page has this:
"Davis is a Christian and has used his religious beliefs to convince Klansmen to leave and denounce the KKK.
He is the subject of the 2016 documentary Accidental Courtesy: Daryl Davis, Race & America."

His book is "Klan Destine Relation: A Black Man's Odyssey in the Ku Klux Klan".
I have not read it.

[BGuttman]

Norbie, Unions will offer protection from unreasonable actions by Management, but there are limits to what they can do. Especially now, where most workers are NOT unionized (and particularly in Texas). Also, altruistic employers are the exception, not the rule; despite what you may want or think.

We can sit and Monday Morning Quarterback the situation ad nauseam, but the fact remains: if you shoot your mouth off there are consequences.

[ArbanRubank]

Great discussion!

We pretty much have assumed that she is devastated, broken and ruined. But I find it difficult to believe that someone could be so "inside a bubble" as to not know that there could be severe professional and social consequences for such actions. It's not like it hasn't been plastered all over the place with celebs, athletes and politicians having to apologize and/or getting tossed out of whatever they are doing. Jimmy Fallon was just in the news from a 20-year ago thing!

So, I am wondering if there was an ulterior motive to her actions. I can think of several scenarios. One might be an ultimate plan to take the Symphony to court for (what her lawyer might argue ) was an unwarranted firing and - if cable TV has it right - settle out of court with an NDA. Under this scenario, the Symphony wins b/c they get the high road and she wins b/c she gets lump-sum cash (which is, I think non-taxable) to start her life over again. No one is ever the wiser, due to the NDA hushing both sides. Maybe she was disgruntled and simply bored to death with her life and this was her way of firing back. I dunno and I wonder if we will ever know the exact truth behind her actions. OTOH, it could be what it appears to be - a classic example of racism on display for the world to see. All we see is what appears to be the train wreck.

[timothy42b]

Great discussion!

We pretty much have assumed that she is devastated, broken and ruined. But I find it difficult to believe that someone could be so "inside a bubble" as to not know that there could be severe professional and social consequences for such actions.

I'm not so sure. My experience with a few acquaintances is that the bubble is pretty well hermetically sealed.

I further think there are two types of bubble involved. One is the social media bubble, the idea that once you've entered that zone you're pretty much free to use any language you want without consequence. I cringe at what some of my friends post publicly. This may be partly generational - people my age are less likely to be heavy social media users - but it may be the effect of culture, the more you hang around people who do this the more you think it's reasonable.

The other bubble I have to be a little more careful describing, I don't want to even verge on getting political, but there are some media outlets that feature a lot of nastiness. It is one thing to disagree with someone's position, another to consider it proper to treat them with disrespect, contempt, and abusiveness. If that happens to be the only news you watch, over time again you may come to accept that behavior as reasonable. This has happened with a close friend; we cannot talk about whether an opinion is valid or not because disagreement always justifies abuse.

I've recently read the book iGen:
https://www.amazon.com/iGen-Super-Conne ... 1501151983

and it makes some interesting distinctions between the millenials and the younger generation that I had not suspected. It's worth a read. The premise is that while millennials to some extent extended adolescence, iGen has extended childhood, and feels entitled to be protected from difference of opinion. Vastly oversimplified of course, you should read the book. Overdrive is your friend.

[ArbanRubank]

Great point! We are probably all inside some kind of bubble. And if the contents of that bubble - or personal belief system - is all we know and all we are exposed to, then it's not us who is inside the bubble, it's everyone else!

[slipperyjoe]

https://www.austinchronicle.com/daily/a ... t-remarks/

She did lose some of her pre-college teaching jobs.

Good. She has no business working with kids.

[BurckhardtS]

Care to site exactly what airy fairy religion land concepts you're talkin about? I can then explain.

You keep using terms like "sin" and "redemption". There's no inherent issue, but these terms can mean wildly different things depending on who you ask.

[8parktoollover]

For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.
But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.

This country has a long history of racism.

During the 1960s, the South was controlled by vocal, avowed racists. They had been elected, and did things that make the reaction's to this week's protests look like a summer camp capture-the-flag game.

You know what changed things? The Civil Rights Act. All of the sudden, it became easier for Black people to vote. Most of those people were voted out. They were "fired." THAT is when things started to change.

A few did change their views later in life (some rather famously). A few didn't. The point is, though, that "silencing" racism is not the issue here- it's having racists in positions of power and responsibility, where they damage the fabric of our society. Someone earlier pointed out that this trombone player was an instructor at local schools. A huge part of the job of anyone in the performing arts is outreach and education. I'd say her ability to do that that is directly compromised by her views and actions.

If she chooses to reform her views, then great. However, she made her bed with those comments. I wouldn't be surprised if she can never find a job playing trombone again, and honestly, I think that's fair. She abused the power and responsibility that came with her job in the first place. There is no way that I'd let her on stage with me. If word got out, there would be a protest in the audience.

This should be a reminder to everyone that your employer does not owe you anything, beyond a paycheck and safe working conditions, free from discrimination. She should have no expectation of ever working in this field again, let alone in Austin.

I see where you're coming from but I think you're exagerating a bit. Trombonist really don't have very much power and you're talking as if she's a corrupt politician. Also, how exactlyis she abusing her powers?

[Bach5G]

Pretty thorough explanation in the Austin Chronicle story.

But, is Ms. B an anomaly? Trump has the support of 43% of respondents to a recent poll. That number has been pretty solid over his term of office. His support might be even higher in red state Texas. The story says Ms B’s political views were known to her colleagues. She initially posted the remarks that got her canned on someone else’s FB page.

[paulyg]

I see where you're coming from but I think you're exagerating a bit. Trombonist really don't have very much power and you're talking as if she's a corrupt politician. Also, how exactlyis she abusing her powers?

It depends on how you define power. If you're thinking along the lines of "mobilizing the state police to fire water cannons at peaceful protestors," then yes, trombonists rarely find themselves with that power.

However, I consider my trombone teachers some of the most influential figures in my life. This goes to what you were talking about earlier- nurturing young people the right way can prevent someone from developing these racist, abhorrent views. On the other side, imagine being Black, and showing up to a lesson with a person like this, or an audition where they are on the committee. That is the power and responsibility that comes with a position like hers. Sure, you may not make the national nightly news (although I think there's a good chance that she did here), but you have the power to destroy lives.

[8parktoollover]

I see where you're coming from but I think you're exagerating a bit. Trombonist really don't have very much power and you're talking as if she's a corrupt politician. Also, how exactlyis she abusing her powers?

It depends on how you define power. If you're thinking along the lines of "mobilizing the state police to fire water cannons at peaceful protestors," then yes, trombonists rarely find themselves with that power.

However, I consider my trombone teachers some of the most influential figures in my life. This goes to what you were talking about earlier- nurturing young people the right way can prevent someone from developing these racist, abhorrent views. On the other side, imagine being Black, and showing up to a lesson with a person like this, or an audition where they are on the committee. That is the power and responsibility that comes with a position like hers. Sure, you may not make the national nightly news (although I think there's a good chance that she did here), but you have the power to destroy lives.

I understand.

I still think that the consequences were bit too harsh and maybe she should have been given another chance befor e termination but were going to have to agree to disagree on that.

[paulyg]

I understand.

I still think that the consequences were bit too harsh and maybe she should have been given another chance befor e termination but were going to have to agree to disagree on that.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on anything, not even on disagreeing with you. I see that you fail to grasp the magnitude of the situation, because you're continually advocating for a less severe consequence. I think it illustrates the point I'm making about how difficult it is to educate people about these issues, because you certainly seem intent on downplaying how unacceptable these actions really were.

[8parktoollover]

I understand.

I still think that the consequences were bit too harsh and maybe she should have been given another chance befor e termination but were going to have to agree to disagree on that.

I don't think I'm going to agree with you on anything, not even on disagreeing with you. I see that you fail to grasp the magnitude of the situation, because you're continually advocating for a less severe consequence. I think it illustrates the point I'm making about how difficult it is to educate people about these issues, because you certainly seem intent on downplaying how unacceptable these actions really were.

Well then you're going to be yelling into the wind if you want to try to keep arguing with me. I see that we are both very stubborn about our opinions and I think further arguing would be useless since honestly, I don't really care if you agree with me or not.

[Bach5G]

Drummer Hilary Jones has also made similar, if not worse, statements online. It’s odd to me that people would not act more in their own interest and keep such thoughts to themselves. In Ms. Jones’ case, it appears she has lost some endorsement deals.

[paulyg]

Well then you're going to be yelling into the wind if you want to try to keep arguing with me. I see that we are both very stubborn about our opinions and I think further arguing would be useless since honestly, I don't really care if you agree with me or not.

You talk the talk, but you aren't walking the walk. How can you feel that giving people a second chance so they can be re-educated is effective, while you yourself are so stubborn and cavalier about this issue?

[8parktoollover]

Simply because I disagree. I also don't think they should be given infinite chances. If they don't learn by the first time then yes, something like this should happen.

[slipperyjoe]

Drummer Hilary Jones has also made similar, if not worse, statements online. It’s odd to me that people would not act more in their own interest and keep such thoughts to themselves. In Ms. Jones’ case, it appears she has lost some endorsement deals.

Pretty awful stuff from Ms. Jones.

It's like some weird sort of self-aggrandizement. They must know that they're going to burn every bridge they have and yet decide to go down in flames as if it's a badge of honor. I guess. I'm not really sure.

[slipperyjoe]

Simply because I disagree. I also don't think they should be given infinite chances. If they don't learn by the first time then yes, something like this should happen.

I think we can be sure that our middle-aged, trombone-playing bigot had unleashed her vitriol elsewhere. The career-ending episode wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last. Good riddance.

At any rate, she made the NY Daily News:
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... story.html

That's the big time in my neighborhood.

[paulyg]

Simply because I disagree. I also don't think they should be given infinite chances. If they don't learn by the first time then yes, something like this should happen.

You are inventing hypotheticals to lessen the impact of what really happened. Are we taking for granted that this WAS the first time something like this happened? Some of the comments over on Slippedisc seem to suggest otherwise.

In a world of hypotheticals, it is possible to justify any course of action. At this point we've discussed this so much that I'm forced to conclude that you're simply refusing to confront reality. Sometimes giving people the benefit of the doubt can be a positive thing- here, it is positively stupid.

[jthomas105]

Let's give this some more perspective, the person's Facebook page she posted this on is a Black/African-American band director in the Austin area. How do you think he felt having this person raving like this on his page? She knew who he was when she started this. Someone tried to get to back off and she continued. It wasn't something she started on her page or another person's page that she was having a dialogue with. She started this on black man's Facebook page. That made it not just racist, but personal to Mr. Wilson. She knew what she was doing and who she was saying it to. If she is willing to do this to an adult educator, how do we know how she might treat a minority student she might come in contact with? Even worse she would be in the position to spread these types of toxic thoughts to the minds of impressionable young students. That's why not only was she dismissed from the symphony and opera but has been removed from her position as an approved free-lance trombone instructor in the schools she has taught in. She will never teach in another school in Texas. Does this person deserve a second chance? No. She is not a young person with a developing mind and character. She is a 30-something adult that is who she is and let people know her thoughts and beliefs.

How about some more perspective from my pov? I have a couple dog’s in this hunt. I live in Texas where this took place and I am a band/music teacher in Texas. I am a white guy, like most of you. How many of you fear how your kid's or you may be treated if stopped/approached by cops or people like the Cooper woman in NYC? We all worry about our teenage and young adult children when they are out on their own. You don't worry like I do though. My kids are black. They are adopted from ages 13 months, 11 weeks and 13 months. I have had the talk with my kids that every black parent has with their kids. Yes, I know white parents have the talk too, but is not the same. Driving and walking while black is a thing.

My oldest son has told me about white people where he went to college sending their dogs after him when was walking through a neighborhood to get to a rec center to work out unless he was with white friends.

He was given a piece of crap citation in high school by the school resource officer. You should have seen the officer's reaction when I met them in the parking lot of his school to discuss the issue. His eyes got big and he stammered a moment that "oh, I didn't know you are his dad". See, I taught at another school in the district where he was usually was on duty but had been called to the high school because the regular officer had an appointment. I know by his reaction that had he known that I was his dad or that he had been white he would not have written the citation. What he did was wrong but if it had been a white kid it would have been dealt with differently.

How about the time not long after our first son came to us that my wife went into a boutique type store with our son to shop that she had been to many times and the clerk refused to take a check for the purchase. I got home and my wife told me about it, I went to the store to get the items. When I went to pay, I pulled out my checkbook and the lady was ready to accept it. Then I questioned her about why she wouldn't take from my wife when she was in with my son. She didn't have an answer. We know why though, racism, "I can't sell to this white (insert derogatory term) that has some black man's baby with her. She can't be trusted. Her check is no good. She's no good because she's with a black man." Any or all of those thoughts went through that woman's mind.

I am a teacher, I tell my students all the time, "Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it." I also tell them, “you don't have to like everyone, but you do have to get along"

The events of the last week have made me angry, disgusted and sad. This is the first place I have responded or said anything about any of these events. I am angry and disgusted at our leaders that place the blame anywhere but with themselves. I am sad for our children, all of them, because left to their own devices without input from the adults around them they would get along just fine.

I’m sorry this is so long. It’s really been difficult to put my thoughts together and wrap my head around all that has happened in the week and a half. I still don’t think I have done a very good job of it but I had to try.

[slipperyjoe]

I still don’t think I have done a very good job of it but I had to try.

I think you did a great job. Your kids and students are lucky to have you.

[paulyg]

Thank you for sharing. It helps to put this in perspective for the ignorant people here.

[CalgaryTbone]

Let's give this some more perspective, the person's Facebook page she posted this on is a Black/African-American band director in the Austin area. How do you think he felt having this person raving like this on his page? She knew who he was when she started this. Someone tried to get to back off and she continued. It wasn't something she started on her page or another person's page that she was having a dialogue with. She started this on black man's Facebook page. That made it not just racist, but personal to Mr. Wilson. She knew what she was doing and who she was saying it to. If she is willing to do this to an adult educator, how do we know how she might treat a minority student she might come in contact with? Even worse she would be in the position to spread these types of toxic thoughts to the minds of impressionable young students. That's why not only was she dismissed from the symphony and opera but has been removed from her position as an approved free-lance trombone instructor in the schools she has taught in. She will never teach in another school in Texas. Does this person deserve a second chance? No. She is not a young person with a developing mind and character. She is a 30-something adult that is who she is and let people know her thoughts and beliefs.

How about some more perspective from my pov? I have a couple dog’s in this hunt. I live in Texas where this took place and I am a band/music teacher in Texas. I am a white guy, like most of you. How many of you fear how your kid's or you may be treated if stopped/approached by cops or people like the Cooper woman in NYC? We all worry about our teenage and young adult children when they are out on their own. You don't worry like I do though. My kids are black. They are adopted from ages 13 months, 11 weeks and 13 months. I have had the talk with my kids that every black parent has with their kids. Yes, I know white parents have the talk too, but is not the same. Driving and walking while black is a thing.

My oldest son has told me about white people where he went to college sending their dogs after him when was walking through a neighborhood to get to a rec center to work out unless he was with white friends.

He was given a piece of crap citation in high school by the school resource officer. You should have seen the officer's reaction when I met them in the parking lot of his school to discuss the issue. His eyes got big and he stammered a moment that "oh, I didn't know you are his dad". See, I taught at another school in the district where he was usually was on duty but had been called to the high school because the regular officer had an appointment. I know by his reaction that had he known that I was his dad or that he had been white he would not have written the citation. What he did was wrong but if it had been a white kid it would have been dealt with differently.

How about the time not long after our first son came to us that my wife went into a boutique type store with our son to shop that she had been to many times and the clerk refused to take a check for the purchase. I got home and my wife told me about it, I went to the store to get the items. When I went to pay, I pulled out my checkbook and the lady was ready to accept it. Then I questioned her about why she wouldn't take from my wife when she was in with my son. She didn't have an answer. We know why though, racism, "I can't sell to this white (insert derogatory term) that has some black man's baby with her. She can't be trusted. Her check is no good. She's no good because she's with a black man." Any or all of those thoughts went through that woman's mind.

I am a teacher, I tell my students all the time, "Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it." I also tell them, “you don't have to like everyone, but you do have to get along"

The events of the last week have made me angry, disgusted and sad. This is the first place I have responded or said anything about any of these events. I am angry and disgusted at our leaders that place the blame anywhere but with themselves. I am sad for our children, all of them, because left to their own devices without input from the adults around them they would get along just fine.

I’m sorry this is so long. It’s really been difficult to put my thoughts together and wrap my head around all that has happened in the week and a half. I still don’t think I have done a very good job of it but I had to try.

Thank you!

[brtnats]

TLDR....sorry if this popped up after page 3.

Some of you guys are missing the forest for the trees.

1. There’s no “due process” for anything other than legal proceedings. If the union was on board with this, then everybody who matters got a voice. And yes, I’m saying the individual in question did *not* matter. She used her voice already.

2. There is no way this orchestra is financially solvent at the moment. The pandemic, that we are still very much in, has killed their ticket sales. They *cannot* risk the future of the whole organization by sheltering an avowed racist in their ranks.

3. It’s not one comment. Read the transcripts. It’s a bunch of racist claptrap spewed with the perception of immunity. If you’re willing to say those things, out loud in public on Twitter, then you’re saying worse in private. Go back to point #2 if you have any question why this happened so fast.

4. Redemption is a choice. She’s got to make it now. If I did anything that publicly threatened the reputation and solvency of my workplace, and I did it numerous time, I’d be terminated without hesitation. I’m betting you would too.

[brtnats]

I am a teacher, I tell my students all the time, "Just because you think it doesn't mean you have to say it." I also tell them, “you don't have to like everyone, but you do have to get along"

Absolutely nailed it. Privilege protects racism. Having a racist thought does not mean you must engage in a racist act. There is a moment of choice where you either commit the act, or you challenge the thought.

We don’t have room for people that refuse to challenge the thought.

[brtnats]

I don't think second chances ever apply to racism or sexual harassment.... At least not so immediately after the infraction.

BOOM. Another winner.

Employers CANNOT TAKE THE CHANCE on employees who commit racial or sexual violations of their TOE. Just, full stop. You two guys arguing that she needs a less severe consequence have clearly never sat on the other side of an HR desk. If an employee demonstrates that they are a danger to their colleagues, you, as the employer, have a responsibility to terminate that employee. As mentioned earlier, employers owe you two things: A paycheck and safe working conditions. You cannot have safe working conditions by protecting racists or sexual predators. There is nothing the employer can do do remedy that situation short of termination, because if anything further happens, the employer is liable for creating unsafe working conditions.

You people need to stop on this second-chance stuff and get off your high horse. Some things, notably things that threaten other people, do not get second chances.

[ArbanRubank]

Exactly!

But we ought to at least give some credit to those on this thread who are trying to be sensitive. Trouble is, when someone tries to be sensitive to everyone, they often end up being ineffective. I had to deal with an HR person once who was - in my opinion - overly compassionate to the point where the "problem" employees were running the asylum.

For the well-being of society, not everyone should come out. Sometimes a person should stay in the closet b/c what they say and/or do is so consummately wrong and patently offensive as to derail society's progress.

There is a difference between someone, who maybe 20 years ago - said, did or wrote something that we now judge under a different social standard to have been very wrong, but has been a good boy or girl since then; vs a present, willfully active and vicious participant.

[VJOFan]

Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?

I cant agree that the present protests are arguing against a “mob” mentality. They are protesting many specific acts of police violence and harassment over time that, taken together, are a pattern of behaviour of those with power against a specific group (POC but mostly black men) that don’t have power. That is not mob mentality; that is systemic racism. An organization (The Austin Symphony) pressed into action by public outrage is not the same as decades/centuries of unfair policing practices.

The fairness of the firing is a point that could be explored, but I don’t agree that it is in any way appropriate to equate the injustices presently being protested in the streets of the United States with an arguably too quick firing.

(In any case, this player is a member of the AFofM. In that case, she should then have avenues of appeal if she wishes. The union then will be obliged to mount a defence. Again not mob rule- the situation is possibly recoverable.)

[mrpillow]

This bullshit makes my soul hurt.

[robcat2075]

I haven't followed trombone stuff much lately, I've barely skimmed the details, but this story sounds very interesting,

So... there's a female trombone player in the news? That's great to hear! The boys club was getting stale!

And.. she's not just a professional, she's a PRINCIPAL in a symphony orchestra? It's about time a woman got the chance to show what she would do in such a visible role.

I'm sure that after her many years of struggle against lies, stupidity and cowardice she will set an example for inclusiveness, fairness and equal opportunity. I can only imagine the insights her students will pick up from her!

And she's internet savvy? On Facebook even? She will show those stodgy fossils who run the classical music world a thing or two about how to leverage the reach of social media!

I won't comment on her obvious good looks because, of course, we should never judge someone by their appearance, but I have no doubt that the Austin Symphony will long remember the day they hired Brenda Sansig Salas!

EDIT: Oh. Whoops. Never mind.

[Doug Elliott]

Best post of the day.

[timothy42b]

Best post of the day.

Yes, the only phrase he missed was "and then they said hold my beer."

[JohnL]

...I have no doubt that the Austin Symphony will long remember the day they hired Brenda Sansig Salas!

They will absolutely remember it...

I suppose someone should ask if she had been posting stuff of this sort before they hired her. If so, someone didn't just drop the ball, they let it bounce into a tree chipper.

Checking a potential hire's social media should pretty much be mandatory - particularly for fields like education and law enforcement.

[SwissTbone]

Checking a potential hire's social media should pretty much be mandatory - particularly for fields like education and law enforcement.

Don't know how it is in the US. But doing that here in Switzerland would be absolutely illegal. I don't say it isn't done though...

[Bach5G]

I can’t imagine hiring someone without looking at their social media accounts. The problem is, what do you do with what you find there?

[brtnats]

@Rob: Pretty much verbatim what my wife said last night. Great minds...

[sungfw]

Checking a potential hire's social media should pretty much be mandatory - particularly for fields like education and law enforcement.

Don't know how it is in the US. But doing that here in Switzerland would be absolutely illegal. I don't say it isn't done though...

There is no federal legislation that prohibits employers or prospective employers from requiring employees or applicants from providing access to social media accounts.

While roughly half of the states have passed legislation that bans employers from requiring employees or applicants to provide their social media credentials, none of those statutes prohibit employees from searching for such accounts or viewing content posted publicly in them.

[JohnL]

Don't know how it is in the US. But doing that here in Switzerland would be absolutely illegal. I don't say it isn't done though...

They aren't allowed to look at a prospective employee's public posts?

[SwissTbone]

Don't know how it is in the US. But doing that here in Switzerland would be absolutely illegal. I don't say it isn't done though...

They aren't allowed to look at a prospective employee's public posts?

There are exceptions where it probably would be allowed. But in theory, an employer that refuses to hire someone because of his writings on social media can be legally blamed.

[sungfw]

They aren't allowed to look at a prospective employee's public posts?

There are exceptions where it probably would be allowed. But in theory, an employer that refuses to hire someone because of his writings on social media can be legally blamed.

That may be the case in Switzerland, but it's not in the US.

Employment in the US is, with a few exceptions (such as a clause in the employment contract stipulating that an employee can only be fired "for cause"), at will," meaning that an employee may be fired at any time and for any reason or for no reason at all, provided that the reason for firing is not illegal, i.e., the grounds for firing is not discriminatory, as defined by the Civil Rights and Equal Employment Opportunity Acts.

Employers are not obligated to extend an offer to an applicant, even if they satisfy all the formal, stated qualifications for a position, again provided that the grounds for the refusal is likewise not illegal.

Social media screening, both during the application process and the course of employment, is a fact of life. As long as an employer does not use legally protected information (age, gender, color, race, religion, national origin, disability, sexual orientation) gleaned from social media to arrive at an employment decision, social media screening is not, in and of itself, a justicable issue. (There may be other justicable issues but those must be adjudicated case-by-case based on the specific circumstance giving rise to the complaint.)

[timothy42b]

I make a lot of hiring decisions and have never looked at social media from a candidate, nor do I know any of my peers who do.

That may be a mistake. I'm sure it's technically against the rules, you are supposed to make judgments only from resumes, interviews, and references. But I don't know how anyone would know.

I think the reasons for not doing so at my work are two-fold: we're of an older generation that doesn't reach for social media as quickly ourselves, and most of us like me are strict about separating our own social media from anything work related. I never friend anyone connected with work (until after retirement) and most of my colleagues feel the same way. Then again, most of my colleagues are in my age bracket. And a good share of our job applicants seem to be close to our age bracket too for some unintended reasons.

[ArbanRubank]

I don't think very many employers check references. I once faked an educational record (well past any statute of limitations now) for a single mom. She got hired for a position that she could do very well but wasn't technically qualified for on paper. They never checked to see if she actually had the "required" education. She worked out just fine for them.

I would look at social media if I was still in a position of hiring, but I wouldn't tell the applicant, especially if I ended up not hiring them for what I saw on their social media.

I told stories and outright lied to prospective employers during interviews to get jobs I wanted. After getting hired, I had one heck of a learning curve! But I always figured that during the hiring process, my selection was a function of HR. After getting hired, my keeping the job was a function of operations. I bet on the fact that the two disciplines never shook hands much.

Anyway, point is - it's a big game! The trick is to ether have the hand to play or bluff it and it's up to the employer to play the roll of the house. When I got to be the house, I kinda knew the game, so I tried to stack the deck as much as I could and only let the "cream of the crop" though. If someone got through the process far enough to interview with me, I based hiring them on whether I liked them, b/c I knew everything else had already been checked and double-checked (vetted, by today's word).

OBTW, there was a certain code among employers in my area. If someone called me to ask about a present employee of whom I actually would have liked getting rid of, I didn't give them a glowing recommendation just to hopefully get rid of them. That would have violated the code. But if asked if I would hire them again, the code wording was, "It depends upon the availability of other candidates". We all knew what that meant.

If an employer doesn't use every means possible to "vet" a prospective employee, then they pretty much deserve whatever bad thing might subsequently happen.

[slipperyjoe]

In independent K-12 education (mostly without unions or tenure), schools commonly give better than deserved recommendations to teachers whose contracts have not been renewed. Ineffective teachers circulate among schools for years. Administrators too.

[Gary]

What about due process?! This orchestra appears to be following it.

Do you consider summarily firing someone preceding any hearing or any other legal defense, due process? Guilty until proven innocent?

[slipperyjoe]

"Once alerted, we were appalled by the comments as they are clearly not reflective of who we are as an organization. We began to work quickly and closely with the American Federation of Musicians, our Orchestra Committee, staff and other key members. At this time we can state that the musician is no longer employed by the ASO for there is no place for hate within our organization."

It may have been an open and shut case. Or the orchestra made the call, the musician will hire an attorney and it's not over. We don't know which terms of the contract may have been violated. There's a lot we don't know.

[BGuttman]

What about due process?! This orchestra appears to be following it.

Do you consider summarily firing someone preceding any hearing or any other legal defense, due process? Guilty until proven innocent?

In At Will employment there is no formal process for terminating somebody. The Boss just says "You're fired" and you can collect your personal things in a box and go out the door. Sometimes there is a method using bad performance reviews, but that takes time and given the precipitous nature of the offense there might not have been time to establish a formal correction.

Cases like these can be litigated if the person fired feels that it was unjust. The AFM will also intervene in cases of unjustified separation. I don't think the AFM felt that this one deserved intervention.