Yikes

[slipperyjoe]

My final employer (I'm retired) made it abundantly clear in the employee handbook that any social media posts or other public behavior reasonably considered offensive (typically with respect to protected classes) would be grounds for disciplinary action, including termination.

[8parktoollover]

I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.
Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.

If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.

[norbie2018]

When you try to advocate for someone who espouses racism, you can't convince anybody you don't agree with them.



If you want to be an apologist for racists you become like the 3 cops who stood by while one of their comrades choked a person to death.

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

[Bach5G]

But the second chance may not mean she keeps her job, but rather, finds another one with a forgiving employer.

[Burgerbob]

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

Again... what do you say to the members of her former orchestra that she was referring to? To forgive and forget?

[norbie2018]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

[8parktoollover]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What you propose?

Of course, if it happened more than once it's a different story

[slipperyjoe]

It would be interesting to learn how many orchestra members would have flat-out refused to rehearse or perform with that particular musician if she hadn't been fired.

[Burgerbob]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

[8parktoollover]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

It's also pretty naive to go around thinking that people need to do everything for you so that you'll feel comfortable.

[norbie2018]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.

[8parktoollover]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.

exactly
You'll be going around with the no forgiveness attitude until you mess up and want forgiveness.
Personally, I have messed up many times and gotten forgiven each time. When you're in a situation like this it makes you understand how important it is to forgive people.

[paulyg]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead. It’s not like you’re affecting the outcome in this particular instance. However, forgiveness isn’t cheap. I think you don’t understand what it means to actually forgive someone- they have to want it, and show that they are ready for it. Otherwise, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

[norbie2018]

Yes, see the goodness in her, forgive and move on with your life. What do you propose? Are you willing to cast the first stone?

If it makes you feel better, then go ahead. It’s not like you’re affecting the outcome in this particular instance. However, forgiveness isn’t cheap. I think you don’t understand what it means to actually forgive someone- they have to want it, and show that they are ready for it. Otherwise, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

No, forgiveness is not cheap but what's the other option? Resentment and bitterness and hatred, just some of the things this woman has spouted off. I don't want that in my life. As I wrote, "The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so."

[paulyg]

Then you're being selfish by dismissing her actions, or calling for the consequences to be tempered, in the name of forgiveness. The other option is the only path forward. Those with the power to meet actions like this with justice, must.

In our capacity, we should put forgiveness on the shelf for a while. I think that we should demand that our colleagues, students, and teachers hold themselves to a high standard of conduct, especially when it comes to eliminating injustice and racism.

[norbie2018]

Then you're being selfish by dismissing her actions, or calling for the consequences to be tempered, in the name of forgiveness. The other option is the only path forward. Those with the power to meet actions like this with justice, must.

In our capacity, we should put forgiveness on the shelf for a while. I think that we should demand that our colleagues, students, and teachers hold themselves to a high standard of conduct, especially when it comes to eliminating injustice and racism.

I never once posted that her actions should be dismissed, nor that she should not be held accountable for her actions, nor did I ever mean to imply that, because that would be wrong.

You didn't read my previous post:

"One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

[Gary]

At the risk of repeating myself, one better be careful that what you want muzzled in someone else today doesn't translate to someone wanting to muzzle you tomorrow. Also, some of you are confusing the disliking what was said with the right to say it.

[8parktoollover]

It seems like a lot of people here are using a very black and white mentality.

[Elow]

I never said accept racism. You can see what I mean by reading the article about The guy who converts people from the KKK.
Anyway, I don't think that shunning people from society id the solution.

You said “if we were more accepting of racists then it would help solve the problem”. Please tell me how that is different from “we should accept racists”

[Elow]

I never said to stand by and do nothing. I already said multiple times that she should be condemned. I just think we need to change our approach on how we deal with it.

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect

[Elow]

I can't help but feel you are pretty sheltered yourself. My attitude is born out of suffering, the suffering I have caused myself and others, and the forgiveness I have received for my sins from my God, from others, and myself.

I take it you've never studied major religions or the premises laid out by them? One can want justice, demand it, receive it, and still have the need, maybe the longing to forgive the other person for their harm. The forgiveness is as much for yourself as it is for the offender, maybe more so.

BTW, you never answered my questions.

exactly
You'll be going around with the no forgiveness attitude until you mess up and want forgiveness.
Personally, I have messed up many times and gotten forgiven each time. When you're in a situation like this it makes you understand how important it is to forgive people.

If it’s an accident, then they will be forgiven. But if someone goes out of their way 3 times to make a hateful post, then she should be dealt with accordingly. What did she think was going to happen when she posted 3 seperate racist comments. How idiotic do you have to be to think posting racist comments won’t backfire on you. She knew what she was doing

[8parktoollover]

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect

This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.
I hope you realize that it's possible to do both

[Elow]

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect

This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.
I hope you realize that it's possible to do both

So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that

[Bach5G]

I pointed out above that according to one professor sensitivity studies in fact reinforce existing beliefs. What seemed to work was people of various races working together and getting to know one another.

[8parktoollover]

For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.
But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.

[norbie2018]

I am with you - you need to talk to people from the other side, find common ground, if you ever expect to convert them to your side. You cannot throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that is precisely what many do nowadays. I find that sad and disappointing; those so quick to judge are not willing to just as quickly forgive. These are human beings we are dealing with, having inherent worth. I wrote already about redemption and I'll stand by that premise because I have experienced it and know how it has positively effected me and my family and countless others whose lives I have effected.

Why shouldn’t i be so quick to judge when they judge someone based on skin color. I don’t care who they are, if they are racists i will treat them only with disrespect

The other person has inherent worth and their sin does not define them as a person. The only way you can get the other person to change their way of thinking is to find common ground and build a relationship based on that. It is a choice: do we want to ostracize a person for the rest of their lives based on their wrong or accept them back into the fold?

[norbie2018]

This is a perfect example of black and white thinking. I for the 100th time will say that somebody who does such a thing should be punished but not leave it at that and to also try and educate them.
I hope you realize that it's possible to do both

So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

[BurckhardtS]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

[8parktoollover]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.

[norbie2018]

I can't help but feel that this is a pretty naive attitude.

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.

[8parktoollover]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.

As I mentioned. People will hold on to this mentality until they need to be forgiven. I don't mean to attack anybody but this mentality is very common among young naive people. Of course it might be hypocritical for me to say that but I think it's safe to say I've had some experiances a lot of people will never have.

[Elow]

So you would like her to be educated to treat everyone equal? How do you suppose someone does that

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.

[Elow]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.

I will say once again, there is a world of opportunities outside the music realm. Whether or not the employer wants a racist is a different problem for her.

[Elow]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

If there is a severe punishment like a year of unpayed leave then I don't see how she wouldn't learn something from that

And on the second part, you realize that it's pretty much impossible to recover from this.

Again, she posted 3 separate times. What did she think that would accomplish. She should’ve known that this would affect her negatively.

[paulyg]

For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.
But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.

This country has a long history of racism.

During the 1960s, the South was controlled by vocal, avowed racists. They had been elected, and did things that make the reaction's to this week's protests look like a summer camp capture-the-flag game.

You know what changed things? The Civil Rights Act. All of the sudden, it became easier for Black people to vote. Most of those people were voted out. They were "fired." THAT is when things started to change.

A few did change their views later in life (some rather famously). A few didn't. The point is, though, that "silencing" racism is not the issue here- it's having racists in positions of power and responsibility, where they damage the fabric of our society. Someone earlier pointed out that this trombone player was an instructor at local schools. A huge part of the job of anyone in the performing arts is outreach and education. I'd say her ability to do that that is directly compromised by her views and actions.

If she chooses to reform her views, then great. However, she made her bed with those comments. I wouldn't be surprised if she can never find a job playing trombone again, and honestly, I think that's fair. She abused the power and responsibility that came with her job in the first place. There is no way that I'd let her on stage with me. If word got out, there would be a protest in the audience.

This should be a reminder to everyone that your employer does not owe you anything, beyond a paycheck and safe working conditions, free from discrimination. She should have no expectation of ever working in this field again, let alone in Austin.

[Elow]

For one, maybe a bit of a more leniant punishment and not firing her completely. It would give her the opportunity to understand that what she did wan't ok and have a chance at redeeming herself.
But anyway silencing racism is not the same as ending racism.

This country has a long history of racism.

During the 1960s, the South was controlled by vocal, avowed racists. They had been elected, and did things that make the reaction's to this week's protests look like a summer camp capture-the-flag game.

You know what changed things? The Civil Rights Act. All of the sudden, it became easier for Black people to vote. Most of those people were voted out. They were "fired." THAT is when things started to change.

A few did change their views later in life (some rather famously). A few didn't. The point is, though, that "silencing" racism is not the issue here- it's having racists in positions of power and responsibility, where they damage the fabric of our society. Someone earlier pointed out that this trombone player was an instructor at local schools. A huge part of the job of anyone in the performing arts is outreach and education. I'd say her ability to do that that is directly compromised by her views and actions.

If she chooses to reform her views, then great. However, she made her bed with those comments. I wouldn't be surprised if she can never find a job playing trombone again, and honestly, I think that's fair. She abused the power and responsibility that came with her job in the first place. There is no way that I'd let her on stage with me. If word got out, there would be a protest in the audience.

This should be a reminder to everyone that your employer does not owe you anything, beyond a paycheck and safe working conditions, free from discrimination. She should have no expectation of ever working in this field again, let alone in Austin.

This

[norbie2018]

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/54486193 ... heir-robes

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?

[Burgerbob]

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?

Go ahead and start a mass reeducation program. I'm not totally kidding.

In the meantime, she's going to get fired.

[BGuttman]

Not exactly educating, just befriending. If anyone wants to try and be her friend, please do.

Educating or befriending, call it what you want, but this black man through a personal relationship with a KKK member was able to make him change his mind. He put a little bit more love in the world. Can you not see how that's worthwhile?

We know about this guy because he's a rarity. Rest assured, the KKK does not invite Black or Jewish members.

About the best we can hope for is to clean our own houses.

[norbie2018]

Something I take away from his story is that change happens when one person works with another person. I agree with you that we should clean our own houses but in doing so we can have a profound influence on those around us.

[harrisonreed]

It is. It's extremely childish. She's a grown ass adult- with children mind you- and she has to learn that what she does is wrong and affects many people. Letting her keep her job will only give her a slight wrist slap and reinforce that being a racist is OK, as long as you don't tell anyone about it. Being potentially forced out of a career will force you to learn, whether you like it or not.

She still has an opportunity to clean up her act and learn that racism is not tolerated and move on, no one is keeping that from her. Anyone who makes their living solely on playing should consider themselves extremely lucky in the first place. Absolutely no one is entitled to that.

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"

[norbie2018]

The concept of forgiving someone for their actions is contained in many world religions and has been practiced by mature adults for many centuries. One should expect justice, but then one must forgive, mostly for their own sake, otherwise hatred and resentment will take hold. If a person allows themselves to be filled with resentment and hate, how does that help them heal? Who is that hurting?

What I just presented sounds like rather a mature way of thinking to me.

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"

It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.

[Burgerbob]

I'd say she's the one with the onus of redemption, not us.

[harrisonreed]

"You posted racist comments publicly, in violation of the terms of your employment. You're fired. We forgive you"

Seems OK to me. Do you expect to be forgiven for being fired from a job from any of the myriad of other legitimate reasons to be fired from a job?

"You caused bodily injury to others for operating a mill improperly. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You tried selling drugs to children at a local park. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You failed to report for work on a critical day of the cycle. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You violated sexual harassment policy at the company, which includes behavior on and off the clock in accordance with our contract. You're fired. We forgive you"

"You suck at your job. You're fired. We forgive you"

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.

My response was not tongue in cheek. It was deadly serious, from someone who is gainfully employed and happy to be so.

What world do you live in that you expect neighborly, idealistic behavior from an employer? Certainly not in capitalistic America. Businesses are not usually "in the business" of rehabilitating people, especially their employees. It is a noble pursuit to try to save the people around you, but come on man. An employer? When there are literally a thousand trombonists who would kill for that job? Or thousands of machinists on the dole right now, who would want that machinist job? You're in lala land.

I get the feeling that this is all hitting to close to home for some people, forcing them to take a look on the mirror. Just the feeling I get from some of these reactions.

[BurckhardtS]

It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.

I'm getting tired of repeating the same concepts over and over again too, but I will for your sake.

I don't think any of us would disagree or would not want to have a second shot at things if we've screwed up. I could give you a few very personal examples of things I've screwed up and wish I would have had a second shot at (and I'm only 24!). However, I never felt entitled to be given a second chance, and I have moved on if I wasn't. I've gotten lucky, and I've been burned.

You seem to be in some kind of airy fairy religion land with your choice of terminology. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's clear that those terms are not lining up with what we are talking about here. Care to explain?

[norbie2018]

If you were serious I do apologize.

I think you're painting too broad a stroke when it comes to employer-employee relations. There are unions out there that have policies in place to force employers to give an employee a second chance. But even in non-union shops you have employers that are willing to give a person a second chance, depending on severity of the infraction. Naturally, there are some infractions that demand firing and in light of this trombonist situation, her employers had no choice.

[harrisonreed]

I don't think second chances ever apply to racism or sexual harassment.... At least not so immediately after the infraction.

In this case, the chance at redemption is that some other employer will hire her later on down the line. Redemption and punishment usually happen at different times.

[norbie2018]

It gets tiring to repeat the same Concepts over and over again, but I will for your sake. I never said that a person shouldn't be judged and have an appropriate punishment for their actions. What I'm stating, and have stated several times so far, is that a person needs a opportunity for Redemption.

You can poke fun at the concept all you want but someday at some point you're going to be in the position to want the Forgiveness of another human being. I hope you're not so smug if you don't get it.

I'm getting tired of repeating the same concepts over and over again too, but I will for your sake.

I don't think any of us would disagree or would not want to have a second shot at things if we've screwed up. I could give you a few very personal examples of things I've screwed up and wish I would have had a second shot at (and I'm only 24!). However, I never felt entitled to be given a second chance, and I have moved on if I wasn't. I've gotten lucky, and I've been burned.

You seem to be in some kind of airy fairy religion land with your choice of terminology. I'm not saying it's wrong but it's clear that those terms are not lining up with what we are talking about here. Care to explain?

Care to site exactly what airy fairy religion land concepts you're talkin about? I can then explain.

[Elow]

I give up, most of us are either too stubborn or stupid to change our mind. What’s done is done, and i’m happy. All this post has done is spread even more hate. I’m sorry if i was rude, but i think they took the right action.

[norbie2018]

There's been post upon post upon post about forgiveness and Redemption and wanting to see the other person eye to eye. How can that spread more hate?