Yikes

[Mv2541]

Did anyone else see a certain trombone player's racist remarks getting spread around FB? I'll be decent (deserved or not) and leave their name out, but the employing orchestra posted that they are at least aware of the situation. I wonder what course of action they will decide to take.

In looking at the person's Twitter account it seems not very surprising they would hold such ignorant views. From what others have posted it appears that those who knew her were not surprised, with some claiming this was not the first 'questionable' thing she has posted.

While this country may be a breeding ground for that kind of behavior, it is still very upsetting and surprising to see that there are artists who express these kinds of views. How can you even be a member of an orchestra (or a musician/artist in general) if you believe (the collective) we are on different teams?

Such a shame.

[Doug Elliott]

Did she just get kicked off of Facebook? I figured out who it is and found screenshots, but a search for her name doesn't go anywhere.

Almost nothing surprises me anymore.

[Mv2541]

Did she just get kicked off of Facebook? I figured out who it is and found screenshots, but a search for her name doesn't go anywhere.

Almost nothing surprises me anymore.

I believe either her account was taken down, or she deleted it/locked it down after facing backlash. The post with screenshots got lots of attention and many people wrote to the employing orchestra demanding action.

Play stupid games... Win stupid prizes.

[Gary]

Well you realize that, for many of us, we have no idea what you are talkin about. So, unless you just like to hear yourself talk (meant nicely, not disingenuously), without a link you can't get much of a dialogue going.

p.s. the people involved that can take action against her certainly know about the situation. In that case, while being considerate of her by not giving any details, you are not really protecting her.,

[Kdanielsen]

Who said what?

I’m ok with outing people for racism...

[Mv2541]

Here was the orchestra's response, which was posted actually very quickly (matter of a couple hours). I am not the type of person to put her name down here (whether she deserves it or not), but it won't take a Sherlock to figure out who she is.

[Bach5G]

Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?

[slipperyjoe]

Who said what?

I’m ok with outing people for racism...

Click on individual panels to enlarge comments. The person who reposted the these stated they were posted on Saturday evening. I don't see dates. Some of the feedback on the Austin Symphony FB page suggests there may have been other comments as well. I don't participate in FB and have no way to verify.

[Kdanielsen]

Brenda Sansig Salas of the Austin Symphony.

Shame on you. People are being murdered.

[slipperyjoe]

Joseph Alessi: Whoever Brenda is, she should be reprimanded by the orchestra and perhaps fired for these comments. I certainly would be fired if I made these statements. What on earth is wrong with people? We should respect all races, all religions, and shut the hell up. This country is in big trouble because our leaders don't seem to care. Anyone connected with Brenda should tell her to apologize for these comments.

[Kdanielsen]

Joseph Alessi: Whoever Brenda is, she should be reprimanded by the orchestra and perhaps fired for these comments. I certainly would be fired if I made these statements. What on earth is wrong with people? We should respect all races, all religions, and shut the hell up. This country is in big trouble because our leaders don't seem to care. Anyone connected with Brenda should tell her to apologize for these comments.

Go Joe!

[norbie2018]

Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?

[slipperyjoe]

Her link/page was removed from the Austin Symphony web site.

https://austinsymphony.org/about/musicians/

It was there within the past hour. Hopefully they were terminated. Hopefully they will lose any teaching gigs as well.

[norbie2018]

Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?

If a man or a woman commits horrible crimes in their youth and pay for their crimes and turn their lives around we celebrate that redemption, we welcome them back into society. I just hope that we give this woman the same chance out of simple love and respect for another human being. Perhaps that's more than she deserves, I don't know the woman so I can't say. I would want to be given a chance if I was in a similar situation.

[Mv2541]

While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.

[slipperyjoe]

Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?

While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.

[Bach5G]

Are these views (or worse) not held by approximately 1/3 of Americans?

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?

Am I too low?

Isn’t firing someone for expressing their views contrary to American values?

[BGuttman]

Not to minimize the offensive remarks, but we have had demonstrations that were far from peaceful about this apparent murder of a black person.

I think the action of the Minnesota policeman was unpardonable. There have been more than a few cases where POC are not treated the same as whites and are often maltreated because of it.

But the solution is not to burn down police stations or loot stores. This is even worse than an armed invasion of a State House demanding haircuts.

To quote Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We has met the enemy, and he is us."

[Elow]

I guess there’s gonna be a new post on the music business forum.

[BurckhardtS]

Her name has been removed from the Austin Symphony Orchestra's website, which likely means she has been terminated.

[BurckhardtS]

I'm not going to get too deep into this, I think everyone should be aware that the overwhelming majority of violence has been directly incited by either the police or less commonly, unaffiliated white supremacist groups. Public media will not show you this, because it will get them shut down.

[norbie2018]

Immediate termination from all jobs? Where's the chance for redemption? I read her posts and I think her views are abhorrent, but does that instantly lead to termination and disgrace?

While she is ultimately to blame for her own views, I believe that it is true that punishing her will not actually solve much. We need to reform the way POC are portrayed by the media and the inherent differences in the way different races are treated differently for the same things.

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.

You might Ascertain from my previous post that you quoted that I disagree with your view. There are other ways of punishing a person like this, for instance suspension and sending her to the appropriate classes. I didn't say she shouldn't be punished for her views, I just don't think it should be that severe. Remember, you have to give room for Redemption.

[norbie2018]

I don't know, but where do you get your approximation from?

Am I too low?

Isn’t firing someone for expressing their views contrary to American values?

I don't know the percentage, but it seems as if you do. I would like you to site where you got that figure from. Or is it just the best guess?

[norbie2018]

I'm not going to get too deep into this, I think everyone should be aware that the overwhelming majority of violence has been directly incited by either the police or less commonly, unaffiliated white supremacist groups. Public media will not show you this, because it will get them shut down.

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.

[Elow]

Yes, termination and disgrace. Zero tolerance.

It will give them time to consider how their racism impacts people of color, including those with whom their children interact.

They can work their way back after overcoming their ignorance.

You might Ascertain from my previous post that you quoted that I disagree with your view. There are other ways of punishing a person like this, for instance suspension and sending her to the appropriate classes. I didn't say she shouldn't be punished for her views, I just don't think it should be that severe. Remember, you have to give room for Redemption.

There’s other jobs. If she made one small comment then it could’ve been an accident. But no, she repeatedly stated her racist opinions and made the choice of posting. That’s her own ignorance. She should’ve known the consequences of her actions before posting something that would obviously hurt her image. I feel the symphony did the right choice, if she wants redemption then she can work her way up again. You need to learn to think about what you’re posting before you post it. Not to mention how bad this must look for the rest of the group

[norbie2018]

I completely agree that person should have thought about what they were posting before they posted it. But does that really matter? Racism just would have been hidden instead of put on full display for the whole world to see.

I've done some really stupid things in my life and was given a second chance and took advantage of that second chance to build a new life for myself and my family. I'm just hoping that she gets the same chance. I don't know this woman, but she's a fellow human being and I have compassion for her and Hope that whatever makes her feel so hateful inside can be healed.

[BurckhardtS]

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.

I can't give you 'scientific data' but I'm not sure what kind of 'scientific data' you are going to expect from riots and protests. That seems like flawed logic.

I wrote a huge post on FB about this, but I'll do it again because I believe the conversation is worth having:

Watch this video:



I'm going to be a bit extreme and say even if this disturbs you, you have a responsibility to watch it all the way through. And this is maybe HALF of the cases that occurred YESTERDAY.

Do you see the body language here? These are children having temper tantrums. Even in situations where use of force may have been necessary to regain control, they ACTIVELY chased down citizens and continued to injure others, even if they have acquired complete control over the situation. The officers standing by watching this happen are complicit in their activities.

All of these cases have exposed that our police force is as a general rule undertrained, not qualified, and not mentally sound enough to be doing the duties that they are.

There is a video that is left out of the Minnesota State Patrol shooting paint rounds at citizens on their own property. Yes, they were outdoors past curfew, but the curfew law specifically states that they are allowed to be outside on their own property.

Except they didn't know that. Let that sink in. The police officers whose job it is to uphold the law didn't know the law. You can hear one of the officers yell "light 'em up" almost as if it is a game to them. Does that not disturb you? There were at least 20+ fully armed troopers in full riot gear, and they decided that it was necessary to open fire on 4 people standing on their own porch.

If this doesn't convince you that there needs to be major criminal justice reform, I'm not sure what will. And I think it will take everyone coming to the table to learn what it it takes to proceed.

[BurckhardtS]

I completely agree that person should have thought about what they were posting before they posted it. But does that really matter? Racism just would have been hidden instead of put on full display for the whole world to see.

I've done some really stupid things in my life and was given a second chance and took advantage of that second chance to build a new life for myself and my family. I'm just hoping that she gets the same chance. I don't know this woman, but she's a fellow human being and I have compassion for her and Hope that whatever makes her feel so hateful inside can be healed.

You should consider yourself extremely lucky then. You have to learn at some point that your actions have consequences. No one is entitled to a second chance, but you can learn from your mistakes, move forward, and do the best you can.

[Bach5G]

In employment law, there is the concept of progressive discipline. Something like warning, suspension, termination.

Cooler heads might have agreed that a suspension and ‘sensitivity training’ (although I once heard a prof explain that sensitivity training made most situations worse by reinforcing already deeply engrained attitudes) might have been appropriate.

Termination creates a martyr?

[slipperyjoe]

In employment law, there is the concept of progressive discipline. Something like warning, suspension, termination.

Cooler heads might have agreed that a suspension and ‘sensitivity training’ (although I once heard a prof explain that sensitivity training made most situations worse by reinforcing already deeply engrained attitudes) might have been appropriate.

Termination creates a martyr?

It may depend on the circumstances, e.g., public vs. private employer, unionized or not, terms agreed upon at the commencement of employment, etc. At-will employment can provide for immediate dismissal without cause, as long as labor laws have not been violated.

In my workplace (K-12 school), we participated in many years of regular and very carefully coordinated community and inclusion work and barely scratched the surface. There is just so much to learn. And, perhaps more importantly, to unlearn. It's really a lifetime of work, especially for white people. We are all really very clueless.

The person who is subject of this discussion is well beyond the reach of any 'sensitivity' training, whatever that is, that might allow them to return to the workplace. They have a load of baggage that could take the rest of their life to undo.

I suspect any martyrdom won't pay the bills.

[slipperyjoe]

Not to minimize the offensive remarks, but we have had demonstrations that were far from peaceful about this apparent murder of a black person.

I think the action of the Minnesota policeman was unpardonable. There have been more than a few cases where POC are not treated the same as whites and are often maltreated because of it.

But the solution is not to burn down police stations or loot stores. This is even worse than an armed invasion of a State House demanding haircuts.

To quote Walt Kelly's Pogo: "We has met the enemy, and he is us."

I agree re: destruction. I do, however, find it ironic that we decry destruction at home while we (the United States) have spent my entire lifetime raining destruction down on people of color around the world in order to benefit the white, U.S. corporate establishment.

[BGuttman]

I agree re: destruction. I do, however, find it ironic that we decry destruction at home while we (the United States) have spent my entire lifetime raining destruction down on people of color around the world in order to benefit the white, U.S. corporate establishment.

I don't agree with our raining destruction on POC in other countries either, unless they have done something to deserve it. I realize our hands are not clean.

[norbie2018]

The vast majority of police forces are made up of people who want to serve other people. They're made of white, black, and brown people. The vast majority of police officers do not go out of their way to incite violence. If you have research or other scientific data which shows differently I'd be happy to read it. What that dude in Minnesota did and the police officers that stood by watching it is Despicable but not representative of the vast majority of police forces in America.

I can't give you 'scientific data' but I'm not sure what kind of 'scientific data' you are going to expect from riots and protests. That seems like flawed logic.

I wrote a huge post on FB about this, but I'll do it again because I believe the conversation is worth having:

Watch this video:



I'm going to be a bit extreme and say even if this disturbs you, you have a responsibility to watch it all the way through. And this is maybe HALF of the cases that occurred YESTERDAY.

Do you see the body language here? These are children having temper tantrums. Even in situations where use of force may have been necessary to regain control, they ACTIVELY chased down citizens and continued to injure others, even if they have acquired complete control over the situation. The officers standing by watching this happen are complicit in their activities.

All of these cases have exposed that our police force is as a general rule undertrained, not qualified, and not mentally sound enough to be doing the duties that they are.

There is a video that is left out of the Minnesota State Patrol shooting paint rounds at citizens on their own property. Yes, they were outdoors past curfew, but the curfew law specifically states that they are allowed to be outside on their own property.

Except they didn't know that. Let that sink in. The police officers whose job it is to uphold the law didn't know the law. You can hear one of the officers yell "light 'em up" almost as if it is a game to them. Does that not disturb you? There were at least 20+ fully armed troopers in full riot gear, and they decided that it was necessary to open fire on 4 people standing on their own porch.

If this doesn't convince you that there needs to be major criminal justice reform, I'm not sure what will. And I think it will take everyone coming to the table to learn what it it takes to proceed.

Thank you for posting that Facebook link because those videos are a source of data. Where is all of this taking place? Are these clips from Minnesota, or is this from across the nation? There really has to be context here. Do some police officers commit acts of violence that are outside the realm of their job? I'd say yes. But that doesn't mean all police officers do this or that all police departments use violence as a tool against protesters. We need better data to know the full story.

I stand by my conviction that the majority of officers want to do the right thing and serve other people. I appreciate departments that have moved to community policing. If there are departments that use violence first obviously they have to retrain their officers, because the use of violence as a first tactic comes from training and from the culture of a police department.

I also appreciate the intelligent discussion that is being had. The subject brings out a lot of emotion in people, and rightly so. But we'll never going to find Solutions screaming past each other or by name-calling. It will only come from individuals working with other individuals for change.

[BurckhardtS]

This is across the country. Many of the incidents have even happened in extremely progressive areas such as Portland or Seattle (in Seattle a 9 year old was pepper sprayed). I found a list of all of these videos and where they occurred earlier today, but I can't seem to find it.

I think I would agree with you that the majority of officers want to do the right thing. In fact, here is a video of a Flint, Michigan Sheriff rallying with the protesters in a positive way.



However, I don't think we can say that this issue is not systemic across our nation, and in fact the evidence points that it is, and that it has been going on for a very long time.

[GabrielRice]

A message from Austin Symphony Orchestra Executive Director, Anthony Corroa

“We would like to thank the community and let you know that your voice was heard. As previously stated, we were made aware of offensive posts that were shared on social media by one of our musicians late last night. Once alerted, we were appalled by the comments as they are clearly not reflective of who we are as an organization. We began to work quickly and closely with the American Federation of Musicians, our Orchestra Committee, staff and other key members. At this time we can state that the musician is no longer employed by the ASO for there is no place for hate within our organization. Thank you for your patience while we navigated through the necessary channels.”

[slipperyjoe]

Good riddance.

[hyperbolica]

Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?

[BurckhardtS]

I would be careful about using the term 'lynching' to describe that particular situation.

[BGuttman]

One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Massimo LaRosa and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

Note: I had put Daniel Morandini in here by mistake. I apologize to Mr. Morandini, who is innocent.

[Bach5G]

Jeez 2020 has been shitty and we’re not even into June yet.

[Mv2541]

Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?

First off, there really wasn't an accusation; she wrote and published the words herself with her own (racist) brain to a public place for everyone to see. If you are found to have cancer, the doctors aim to remove it quickly and entirely before it spreads. There is no room for that kind of person in a professional environment, and she dug her own grave.

Your use of the word 'lynching' is also inappropriate at best. I would advise you, most respectfully, to check yourself and your privilege. She lost her job for spewing filth on her personal Facebook account; innocent people were lynched in America for merely being born people of color. They are not at all related.

[hyperbolica]

...

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

You've done it again. I didn't excuse anyone. Failure to jump on the wagon is not the same as excusing. I just think a civilized country has due process specifically to avoid mob judgment.

And the word "lynching" was chosen specifically to link the hypocrisy of mob rule to mete out punishment to all previous connotations of the word. .

The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.

[Kdanielsen]

...

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

You've done it again. I didn't excuse anyone. Failure to jump on the wagon is not the same as excusing. I just think a civilized country has due process specifically to avoid mob judgment.

And the word "lynching" was chosen specifically to link the hypocrisy of mob rule to mete out punishment to all previous connotations of the word. .

The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.

So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?

[slipperyjoe]

First off, there really wasn't an accusation; she wrote and published the words herself with her own (racist) brain to a public place for everyone to see. If you are found to have cancer, the doctors aim to remove it quickly and entirely before it spreads. There is no room for that kind of person in a professional environment, and she dug her own grave.

Your use of the word 'lynching' is also inappropriate at best. I would advise you, most respectfully, to check yourself and your privilege. She lost her job for spewing filth on her personal Facebook account; innocent people were lynched in America for merely being born people of color. They are not at all related.

Well said. Thank you.

[hyperbolica]

So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.


.

[CalgaryTbone]

One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

Just to keep this from derailing - I think that you meant Massimo LaRosa, not Daniel Morandini. I'm not aware of any misconduct complaints against Daniel, while Massimo is no longer with the Cleveland Orchestra. We don't need to have a different Italian trombonist have his reputation sullied by an identity mistake. On the other hand, I'm fine with people being held responsible for their actions, including firing.

Orchestras reserve the right to fire employees for the behaviour that was demonstrated in this Facebook post. Like it or not, you are a representative of the organization, and the public doesn't always differentiate between personal and professional statements.

Jim Scott

[BGuttman]

One irrational post is a mistake. Several evokes a bias. I would think that the AFM and the Orchestra Management had a lot more than just somebody mouthing off once.

Hyperbolia, are you going to excuse Daniel Morandini and James Levine for sexual misconduct also?

Just to keep this from derailing - I think that you meant Massimo LaRosa, not Daniel Morandini. I'm not aware of any misconduct complaints against Daniel, while Massimo is no longer with the Cleveland Orchestra. We don't need to have a different Italian trombonist have his reputation sullied by an identity mistake. On the other hand, I'm fine with people being held responsible for their actions, including firing.

Orchestras reserve the right to fire employees for the behaviour that was demonstrated in this Facebook post. Like it or not, you are a representative of the organization, and the public doesn't always differentiate between personal and professional statements.

Jim Scott

I already corrected my original post to change Morandini to LaRosa. I apologize for that error.

[Mv2541]

[/quote]
The reason racism is perpetuating in this country is that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease: Intolerance. If you accept any form of intolerance you embrace violence. If you reject intolerance, you have to get comfortable coexisting with people who are different and think differently, but that's the definitionof tolerance and the essence of civilization. You can't have it both ways. Our history proves it.
[/quote]

Of course this is simply an opinion, but I believe racism stems from ignorance, not that the cure is made of the same stuff as the disease (not even mentioning the fact that have claimed to both know the cure for racism and understand the essence of civilization). Also I do not think life (nor intolerance) works like an on-off switch. We can choose to tolerate something while not tolerating something else, and this is a sliding scale. Why does being intolerant on matters of a racist person in what should be a safe workspace mean that we have to embrace violence?

[BurckhardtS]

So you are suggesting that, while people are being murdered by the police, the solution is to tolerate racism?

I'm saying use due process to judge people by their actions. Not who they are (race), not what they think (racist) , or what they say (sticks and stones... ) . Cops killing people is wrong (still deserve due process), setting buildings on fire is also wrong.

Yes, you have to learn to tolerate people who think things you don't like. You can't defeat racism without tolerating it. What are you going to do? Kill all the racists? You know what that sounds like?

You can't fix what people think, but even people who think bad things can avoid bad actions. That's the only way to judge them. There are plenty of racists who don't allow bad thoughts to turn into bad actions.


.

I don't totally disagree with this, but you are making very polarizing statements, which don't really get anyone anywhere.

Again, no one is really entitled to second chances. Does she deserve due process? Sure. She can clean up her act and audition for another orchestra, and maybe she'll get re-hired if she makes a compelling case.

However, if the orchestra sets the public precedent wrong, they (and other orchestras) could have easily collapsed from loss of donors, loss of ticket sales, etc. Now you are talking about hundreds without work.

Orchestras are non-profit cultural organizations, not businesses. They hardly stay afloat most of the time, and have to do massive public outreach to stay there. It just boils down to realizing your actions have consequences. We've all done/said stupid things before that maybe we regret later, and some times you end up on the losing end of it.

[Burgerbob]

Wow. Accused. Tried. Convicted. Executed. By a mob. In an afternoon. Congratulations.

The mob mentality is exactly what we are reacting against, but we are doing it by perpetuating the mob mentality.

There has to be a better way than public lynchings. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the past?

Here's the real yikes today, everyone.