Modernize Vintage Horns

[Bach5G]

I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

The Elkhart 88Hs are 50-60 years old. Slides and valves might be getting worn.

[tbonesullivan]

I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

Do you know which models? I would assume they are using the YSL-882GO, which would be the closest to the 88h.

[Posaunus]

Saw the Royal Philharmonic here in January. Don't think I saw any Conns in the trombone section, but I was too far away be sure. In any case, they sounded wonderful – not at all like the British orchestras of decades past.

Vive le difference!

[EdwardSolomon]

Saw the Royal Philharmonic here in January. Don't think I saw any Conns in the trombone section, but I was too far away be sure. In any case, they sounded wonderful – not at all like the British orchestras of decades past.

Vive le difference!

RPO trombones are Matt Gee (Getzen), Matt Knight (Conn 88H), Josh Cirtina (Elkhart Conn 62H bass).

[Kbiggs]

Another historical example: in the late Renaissance-early Baroque, most of the trombones and trumpets in Italy were manufactured by a few workshops in Germany. Yes, there were Italian makers, but there are few extant Italian instruments from that period, and (if remember Stewart Carter’s book correctly), they were of inferior quality.

There are so few surviving instruments at all from this period that it is impossible to make any such generalization. Certainly instruments from Nuremberg were popular and held in the highest regards, but I wouldn't go so far as to say Italian instruments were necessarily inferior or unpopular. You can count the number of surviving pre-1600 trombones on two hands, and there are two Italian instruments among the 5 oldest surviving trombones. One is a very, very good Venetian instrument, the other has a superb tone and great overtones tuning in its current form, but the original bell flare is missing and replaced with a modern reconstruction and the inner slide is likely 17th century but not original to the instrument (later replacement for a broken slide, probably), so it's hard to say if the horn was as good (or better) originally. It is however a very fancy instrument with very extensive decorations and the biggest collection of extension crooks I know of, so certainly at the time it would have been very expensive and a very high end instrument.

Thanks for the correction. I appreciate the accurate input.

[ngrinder]

I hear you Nick. My concern is the routine 'upgrading' of old instruments in very good order. Rescuing down at heel old instruments is a very good endeavour. I have just finished the rebuild of a Conn 60H that the seller admitted was a bit of a dog as it stood... a USA bell section and a converted modern 62H slide. The valve was shot, but I was lucky enough to have a very good original valve to hand... total rebuild and I open wrapped the valve and a pile of bits is now a great trombone that I will use. I even saved a 70H lamp stand with two huge holes in the J bend... Rescue by all means, but pass original horns on to those who will use them and use the profit to buy something modern and easy. That's all I am suggesting.

Chris

You make a very good point, Chris! Well taken. Though folks can appear to be "heated" on this subject, I think the dialogue this thread has spurned has been very interesting. Valuable to hear your perspective, Chris, as well others' of course!

[paulyg]

I'm flattered that people are taking the time to read my responses, it makes me feel like I have something to contribute. I'll share a few anecdotes about my experience with my old 88H, since my conclusions don't seem to stand on their own.

SOUND: I came to my Elkhart 88H from an extremely "meh" Eastlake horn. The Eastlake was like a dollar-store knock-off of an 88H, and mine was missing the supposedly amazing slide action that sets most of those horns apart. Though my 88H sounded on the lighter side, even for these very light horns, it had an individual character that was addicting to me. It was an absolute gem of an instrument to play.

EASE OF PLAYING: From F in the staff, to high C, the horn was probably the best I've ever played- except for the Ab. I'll give it a pass on that, as I've never really been satisfied with that note on any instrument I've had. It was great to sit in a symphony orchestra and just have 99.5% of the notes for first trombone sit right there. Outside those ranges, though, it got pretty fiddly. No matter what I did, over the four years I owned the horn, I could NOT get it to center down low. Low Bb felt awful to play. I went through every mouthpiece available, from 6.5AL all the way down to a NY 1.5- all made it easier to play louder, but not easier to center notes down there. Before anyone yells "PRACTICE, NOT MOUTHPIECES," I was practicing down there- a LOT. Fast, slow, scales, arpeggios, long tones- nothing worked. It was like there were two horns in one. The best way I can describe the sensation is that the sound down there got "sour" and nothing I did could fix it. Maybe it was a coincidence, but these problems started to clear up almost immediately after I got a Bach 42 with an Olsen valve.

BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.

LOW REGISTER: I tried to develop my low register on this horn. I failed. I got a trigger register when I started doubling bass trombone.

Finally, ME VS. EVERYONE ELSE: I sold the horn to a monster player. We played several gigs together after he bought my old 88H, and he sounded absolutely amazing on it. He could demolish trigger notes, get an amazing core out of it that could level a viola section, and make it sing at pianissimo like nobody's business. Sure, he is a better player than me. All the same, it blew his Abilene 88H out of the water. He also uses a Wick 5AL. He does not project any of the sourness I experienced down low, and has no problem blending with trumpets of any make. He also hates playing Bach 42s.

Would a wide slide, bigger valve, and different leadpipe have helped me address the issues I experienced with the horn? Maybe. Would they have been necessary for everyone? Definitely not. I will say that even though I am extremely happy with my current tenor, I am itching to try one of the Sawday 88Hs. Wide slide, bigger valve, different leadpipe. Hmmm, maybe they're on to something. If I lived on a desert island where I HAD to play an 88H of some kind, that's probably the one I would take. Luckily, though, I live in a free country.

[Doug Elliott]

You have to give an instrument the kind of input that it needs. If you're not sensitive enough or can't figure it out, that horn isn't gong to work for you. Sometimes that's mouthpiece related and sometimes not.
The basic Bach vs Conn situation.

I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed. I'm glad I didn't start messing with leadpipes or slide crooks or anything else.

[FOSSIL]

You have to give an instrument the kind of input that it needs. If you're not sensitive enough or can't figure it out, that horn isn't gong to work for you. Sometimes that's mouthpiece related and sometimes not.
The basic Bach vs Conn situation.

I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed. I'm glad I didn't start messing with leadpipes or slide crooks or anything else.

THIS THIS THIS !!

Chris

[TheBoneRanger]

I owned my first Williams 6 for at least a couple of years before I figured out how to play it... I didn't like it at first but I kept coming back to it periodically until I learned what it needed.

Ditto with a Bach 50 that I’ve had for most of a decade. I must have put that horn back in the case a dozen times and said “never again!” I even looked to sell it at one point, to get it out of my life!

But the sound kept drawing me back, and I’ve learnt what I need to do to really make it sing. I’ve played it almost exclusively during this period without gigs, and I don’t really see myself reaching for my Edwards anytime soon...

Andrew

[FOSSIL]

Doug totally nailed it in a succinct way. The first Holton bass I got I bought from Frank Mathieson who was bass trombone in the LSO. A TR 180, I expected to pick it up and sound just like Frank.... the reality was very different and it played quite differently to my expectations. I knew that actual instrument could sound amazing, so I set about learning how to make it work. I learned how to play Holtons. I had already got a grounding in Conns and much later, I got to grips with Raths. I was offered a Williams a few years back but I passed on it, basically because I felt that I didn't want to spend the time learning how to play another make.
Long winded version of what Doug said.
Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris

[imsevimse]

Learn it, don't hack it.

Chris

That's my belief too. I'm not just agreeing because Chris and Doug said so. I never revealed how many horns I own, but there are a lot of them here and most are old ones. Conns, Holtons, Bachs and Kings mostly but also Yamahas, Kanstuls, William's, Keefer, Alexander, R. Piering, Courtois and odd horns like Wunderlish and Commodore and many more brands I guess I missed. What I've learned by owning and playing all those is exactly what Chris and Doug says. Every horn is different and needs to be played differently and may need another mouthpiece. My belief is you can access a horn in two different ways. The first is you blow it like the horn you are coming from and the second is you adopt to the horn and blow it different until you learn what the new horn wants. You may discover the blow that gives the best sound is another blow and it then gives another kind of sound than the sound you get from the other horn. In some horns you may aim in the middle to get the best sound, in another horn you may need to aim slight high or low - off the centre. You figure this out and try different mouthpieces until you get the picture. You then explore the new horn from that sound and learn how to color it. The best sound of the horn needs to be explored.

I guess some think they need two valves to make any use of a bass trombone. We have had such discussions before. A lot of repertoire does not require two valves and then there are false notes. A single has its place. It is also absolutely possible to play a dependant horn with old kind of rotors. They have been around for a while and can be found used at a good price There are also some used double valved old style inline horns that can be bought cheap. I have a great Benge 290 and a P24G that are great. I'm sure now there are also at least some double inline thayers that are used and cheaper now on the after market. I can not see the need to chop up horns then to build a Franken inline thayer bass, but of course someone might do it for fun and because they believe in that project.

/Tom

[ArbanRubank]

Maybe a lot of others feel the way I do. I don't want to be bothered with dents, worn inner stockings, worn or shot valves, worn lacquer, misaligned slides, etc - even if a classic vintage horn might have a certain je ne sais quoi. I want to play a new, bright shiny horn. Modernized 'em if you got 'em, but I'll take a new one or two, please.

[Doug Elliott]

That's what keeps manufacturers in business and we all thank you for it.

[CalgaryTbone]

To a paulyg, I'm pretty sure that Norman Bolter played his Bach 42B on all of the Empire Brass recordings. I know that on his blog, he talks about showing up at New England Conservatory playing a Conn 8H, but needing a valve for one of his first orchestra concerts. He went to Rayburn or Osmun and picked out the best trigger horn of what they had in stock - a 42B. The BSO section did play Conns on some literature during his time there, and according to his blog, last time I read it, he's been playing his 88H lately, in retirement. I think the Bach was his go-to horn for many years, with his later time in the BSO on a Shires.

Jim Scott

[Bach5G]

You guys are killing me. All this talk of great old horns reminds me of the great old horns I owned at one time or another. Williams, a Minick, a Conn 62H, a Corp 42B I had Benn Hansen put a Thayer on, a tank of an Edwards bass and a very nice 1963 C###### 88H that once belonged to a prominent player who developed focal dystonia and moved into conducting. Of course, the reality of it is that the sale of one horn was used to purchase the next. It would be nice to go back and get a redo knowing what I know now but that applies to many, many things and, I suppose, if I had a limited number of such opportunities, I might not want to waste them on trombones .

[Posaunus]

To a paulyg, I'm pretty sure that Norman Bolter played his Bach 42B on all of the Empire Brass recordings. I know that on his blog, he talks about showing up at New England Conservatory playing a Conn 8H, but needing a valve for one of his first orchestra concerts. He went to Rayburn or Osmun and picked out the best trigger horn of what they had in stock - a 42B. The BSO section did play Conns on some literature during his time there, and according to his blog, last time I read it, he's been playing his 88H lately, in retirement. I think the Bach was his go-to horn for many years, with his later time in the BSO on a Shires.

Jim Scott

Norman joined the Boston Symphony Orchestra in 1975 (at age 20!). He probably showed up at New England Conservatory in 1972 or 1973, at age 17 or 18. Ron Barron was then the BSO's new Principal Trombonist. In 1972, I needed a new F-attachment trombone, and asked Ron for help: he sent me to John Coffey (BSO alum who ran a brass store across the street from NEC, specializing in trombones). I tried everything that John had in stock – 4 Bach 42Bs and a single Conn 88H. The 88H was far superior, and I purchased it (and still treasure it). As it turned out, I believe that was the last 88H he had for a while, since Conn production had moved to Abilene. So by the time Norman arrived in 1972 or 1973, there would have been only (probably inferior) Abilene 88Hs (if any) to try out. I expect the Bach 42B was then an obvious choice, which also probably matched what Ron was playing at the time. Serendipity?

[WGWTR180]

I'm flattered that people are taking the time to read my responses, it makes me feel like I have something to contribute. I'll share a few anecdotes about my experience with my old 88H, since my conclusions don't seem to stand on their own.

SOUND: I came to my Elkhart 88H from an extremely "meh" Eastlake horn. The Eastlake was like a dollar-store knock-off of an 88H, and mine was missing the supposedly amazing slide action that sets most of those horns apart. Though my 88H sounded on the lighter side, even for these very light horns, it had an individual character that was addicting to me. It was an absolute gem of an instrument to play.

EASE OF PLAYING: From F in the staff, to high C, the horn was probably the best I've ever played- except for the Ab. I'll give it a pass on that, as I've never really been satisfied with that note on any instrument I've had. It was great to sit in a symphony orchestra and just have 99.5% of the notes for first trombone sit right there. Outside those ranges, though, it got pretty fiddly. No matter what I did, over the four years I owned the horn, I could NOT get it to center down low. Low Bb felt awful to play. I went through every mouthpiece available, from 6.5AL all the way down to a NY 1.5- all made it easier to play louder, but not easier to center notes down there. Before anyone yells "PRACTICE, NOT MOUTHPIECES," I was practicing down there- a LOT. Fast, slow, scales, arpeggios, long tones- nothing worked. It was like there were two horns in one. The best way I can describe the sensation is that the sound down there got "sour" and nothing I did could fix it. Maybe it was a coincidence, but these problems started to clear up almost immediately after I got a Bach 42 with an Olsen valve.

BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.

LOW REGISTER: I tried to develop my low register on this horn. I failed. I got a trigger register when I started doubling bass trombone.

Finally, ME VS. EVERYONE ELSE: I sold the horn to a monster player. We played several gigs together after he bought my old 88H, and he sounded absolutely amazing on it. He could demolish trigger notes, get an amazing core out of it that could level a viola section, and make it sing at pianissimo like nobody's business. Sure, he is a better player than me. All the same, it blew his Abilene 88H out of the water. He also uses a Wick 5AL. He does not project any of the sourness I experienced down low, and has no problem blending with trumpets of any make. He also hates playing Bach 42s.

Would a wide slide, bigger valve, and different leadpipe have helped me address the issues I experienced with the horn? Maybe. Would they have been necessary for everyone? Definitely not. I will say that even though I am extremely happy with my current tenor, I am itching to try one of the Sawday 88Hs. Wide slide, bigger valve, different leadpipe. Hmmm, maybe they're on to something. If I lived on a desert island where I HAD to play an 88H of some kind, that's probably the one I would take. Luckily, though, I live in a free country.

Well it IS a forum. We read what people write.

[fsgazda]

BLEND: I could make this instrument sound almost indistinguishable from a horn. In fact, one day I was warming up in a corner, and when I emerged somebody was shocked that I was holding a trombone. Playing Ewald quintets, all of the parallel trombone/horn lines sounded incredible. Horn/trombone unisons in orchestral works were home base for me. But, like I said, I worked so hard, and was never successful at blending with trumpets the same way- especially Bach trumpets. Interestingly, I was very satisfied with how it blended with rotary trumpets (Kanstul). If you are interested in hearing a less extreme example of what I'm talking about, listen to the Empire Brass Russian Brass CD (on youtube). Norman Bolter is (to my knowledge) playing his 88H (beautifully). It definitely sounds like a trombone- but if it weren't a trombone, it would be a horn, not a trumpet.

If you ever heard Michael Powell in the American Brass quintet (88H, now a Rath I believe), it is unreal how he sounds like a horn one second and a bass trombone the next. 99% the player, but I think that 88Hs blend better in general than Bach style instruments.

[fsgazda]

Can you customize a vintage horn? Of course, if it's yours do what you want. There is the idea, however that there are only so many of the great classic horns left, so every one that you modify means there are even fewer originals. For some players, the originals work the best and every one that's gone is gone forever.

For me, I don't think that I would modify, I just go on to what works best for me. For example, I struggle with narrow slides on tenor. Maybe because I played exclusively bass for about 10 years before I started seriously doubling, but when I tried the Yamaha 8820, I couldn't make it work, just overblew the crap out of it. The 882OR, with the Bach style slide works great for me. Once I have found the right tool, I tend to stick with it. Played a Shires bass (granted, with on occasional tweak) since 1996 and a Shires tenor for about 8 years, which I haven't modded at all. Took me going through Bach, Edwards and Conn to settle on the Shires tenor, but once I got there I am happy. Now I spend all of my money on euphonum and tuba crap.

[BurckhardtS]

In terms of practicality, I might be able to get a 5-10% sound quality increase if I were to spend the time and money to buy vintage Bach or Conn, test slide after slide to find "the one", get the leadpipe pulled and replaced with a modern replica, and then get new valves fit on and parts replaced... the list goes on. I don't really have that kind of wasting money, or time, and I'll still sound like myself with my own personal playing issues anyway. Maybe if I do have that kind of money and time I'll do it. Props to the people that do, they are beautiful instruments and do have very unique sounds.

Because my teacher at the time is a Shires artist and the de facto 'dealer' for the area, I was able to try a ton of parts, at home, no expense up front. I picked things that capitalized on my strengths and improved my weaknesses. I then paid once for the horn, and haven't looked back. I've dinked around with lead pipes a little bit. I still sound like myself.

If I improve my sound or playing even half of 1% today, I'll make up the advantage of playing a really special vintage horn very quickly. I know that's incredibly simplistic, but I think the point stands.

[paulyg]

I was wrong about Norman Bolter's horn:

http://frequencybone.blogspot.com/2007/09/?m=0

I still have to take umbrage with the "learn to play the horn" philosophy. I'm glad I didn't have a teacher pressuring me to stick with my 88H and tough it out. I worked hard on my low register for FOUR YEARS without any improvement. Somehow it got better when I got a different style of horn. Maybe it was a coincidence, but all signs point to NO. The horn is a tool. If it doesn't do the job you're asking it to do, change it. There is nothing magical about any piece of equipment, vintage or otherwise. If you believe there is, I have a bridge to sell you.

If I'd been with a teacher who insisted I play an 88H, I would absolutely have shipped it off to Don Sawday's chop shop. I don't have the time to bang my head against a brick wall trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[CalgaryTbone]

I would look at this differently - no horn does absolutely everything you need to do better than every other horn. A horn with a great high range might need more work to play great in the low range, or vice versa. One might be super flexible, while another is instead very stable and locked in. As a player, we each need to figure out which qualities are we looking for, and devote some extra practicing time to lifting up the areas that don't measure up as well. I think this is also one of the reasons that most of us have a basement full of horns and drawers full of mouthpieces - we are occasionally drawn to something that makes a skill that we've been working at (either a certain technique, or a quality of sound) easier. Then the reason that we often fall back to our old equipment is that we start to miss something in the sound or response of that combination. There are some situations where the choice of a certain instrument, etc. falls very naturally into the way you play, but someone else might have the exact same experience with a totally different instrument. That doesn't mean that you can't lean to play something else if there are other gains that you feel that you're getting from that horn.

No matter what, "ya gotta practice" so figure out what does it do for you, and can you make it do whatever else you need it to do? If not, then play something else.

Jim Scott

[imsevimse]

I was wrong about Norman Bolter's horn:

http://frequencybone.blogspot.com/2007/09/?m=0

I still have to take umbrage with the "learn to play the horn" philosophy. I'm glad I didn't have a teacher pressuring me to stick with my 88H and tough it out. I worked hard on my low register for FOUR YEARS without any improvement. Somehow it got better when I got a different style of horn. Maybe it was a coincidence, but all signs point to NO. The horn is a tool. If it doesn't do the job you're asking it to do, change it. There is nothing magical about any piece of equipment, vintage or otherwise. If you believe there is, I have a bridge to sell you.

If I'd been with a teacher who insisted I play an 88H, I would absolutely have shipped it off to Don Sawday's chop shop. I don't have the time to bang my head against a brick wall trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I would never stick with a horn that I did not like even if a teacher said so.

To some extent it is no point to switch a horn and that is if a player has not developed skills enough it makes a difference. A teacher could test the horn and then recommend to keep the horn until the skills are there. He might be right and you could be fine with that, but there could also be another reason a new horn could do wonders that a teacher might not see; A new horn could make you play much more and a new horn could make you believe the horn is the great difference. At some stage in development this is just how it works.

When one learned eventually one may look at horns differently. Where I'm right now I've come to the conclusion I have no bad sounding horns The few I've had that had faults have been repaired. Problem has been because of leaks, a broken rotor, a broken pipe, a bad repair or a bad slide.

I have bought many, many horn on eBay. Many were real duds when they arrived but after a good cleaning they were all right. I'm actually grateful to people who think they have a dud and sell them. I can then buy them used and give them a good cleaning and then make them work again. There are really very few bad horns in my collection, for me. The thing that holds a few of them back is their slides. I must just accept the fact older ones were built for another kind of sound concept. An old Conn 40h for example is not a bad horn at all, it just doesn't fit anywhere were I play publicly.

I think it is obvious there is something to vintage horns, because IT IS to some of us. Often people I meet who appreciate them are professional real good players. I do not think we can say they are talking nonsense. To say it is nothing special with vintage horns is to say I'm wrong and THEY are wrong which we are NOT.

I do not understand how anyone could decide what is right or wrong for other players when it comes to what horns to appreciate.

There is something to old horns because how they are built and to say it is not just reveals lack of experience. Thats my way of seeing it. Nothing strange to it because they are indeed built differently. The problem is when you start to categorie horns as good and bad horns. For whom? For what? The world is not like that anywhere. With lots of experience some can make any horn sound good as long as it is not broke.There is no horn of mine that has a bad low register if I use them right and use a good mouthpiece.

/Tom

[FOSSIL]

Paul, you don't have to take umbrage at the 'learn to play it' philosophy . You don't have to embrace it either....you can just ignore it.
You play for fun. You do what you do and that's fine. It couldn't be finer if you are happy.
People can and do learn how to play different makes and models...to get under the skin of an instrument as it were, but you don't have to do that.
I have a large number of really great instruments, old and new.... in reality they are probably no better than the instruments that I owned 40 years ago that were never quite right.... I've just gotten under their skins now and found out how to make them work. Some are still a work in progress.....but that's the fun to me.
Chris

[paulyg]

You always hit the nail on the head, Chris.

I think we can summarize the disagreement here as competing opinions on whether or not the player should adapt to the horn, or adapt the horn to the player.

I broadly fall into the latter category. If an otherwise-competent player has an issue that might be rectified by switching equipment, or modifying their current horn, then I'm a proponent of making that leap. After all, it worked for me.

Oddly enough, you might even say I ALSO fall into the former category. I sold my Conn on without touching it. The new owner is extremely happy with it. And yet, my next horn, and the one after that, opened doors to me that remained stubbornly closed during my time on that vintage horn.

I was privileged to have parents who facilitated my switch to a new, top-of-the-line horn. For all of its aforementioned shortfalls, my Elkhart 88H was a solution that fit my budget, and got me 80% of the way to where I am now.

I am lucky. I had parents with deep enough pockets to get me a horn that fits me like a glove. Moreover, I've deepened my own pockets enough to expand my arsenal with an alto and a bass. The latter is a frankenhorn, the former is bone-stock. They both are excellent matches for me.

For those not as lucky, it will almost certainly be more economical to modify their existing equipment to suit their needs than it would be to cash out and upgrade to a new horn. In that case, I'd say find a competent tech, let the beer flow freely, and start cutting away.

** PS, I believe that "bone-stock" is a triple entendre. I would appreciate independent verification on the following grounds:

-The Latzsch alto I speak of does not require modification
-"Bone" in 'bone-stock' can refer to a trombone, or the common expression "bone stock"
-Bone stock is a nutritious, fortified broth, the constitution of which is not dissimilar to the sound quality of the Latzsch alto in question.

[imsevimse]

Oddly enough, you might even say I ALSO fall into the former category. I sold my Conn on without touching it. The new owner is extremely happy with it. And yet, my next horn, and the one after that, opened doors to me that remained stubbornly closed during my time on that vintage horn.

I get you and "the new owner is extremely happy with it". I'm not saying you are wrong, but to check your theory you need to go back to that vintage horn to try now and then and see if it is still a bad match for you. Let say you try it once a year as you progress on your current horn. If that horn always gives you that same negative even though you yourself evolves and becomes a much better player then the horn is probably a dud for you. Make sure you also try it with a mouthpiece that has that special Remington taper because that makes a big difference.

The real eye opener for me was as I learned I could play the first horns I owned much better in a later state when I had evolved as a player and got more knowledge. I still have my Aebeline Conn 88h I bought 1979. It was a horn I played through my years at the Royal Accademy of Music in Stockholm 84-88 and also had gigs on. Still I never felt I did well on that horn. When I graduated I worked as a music teacher for many years and bought a King 3B and abandoned both the Conn 88h and that 6BL Denis Wick mouthpiece. I turned to a Benge 12C and started to play in a lot of bigbands and I only had occatioal classical gigs where I used the King 3B and not the Conn 88h.

Some years later I picked up a bass trombone and put up a scheme with the purpose to learn to play all my different sizes of horns. Started on Bach 39 alto with Bach 12E, continued with the Conn 88h and my Wick 6BL and finished on my Yamaha 612R with a Yamaha 58. I played 15-20 minutes on each of them with no sheet music just a set of pre recorded classical songs I had programmed on tape that I played from memory. It was a couple of old songs in three different keys to fit alto, tenor and bass. One of them was Bachs air which I played on all three instruments. I also had a couple of trombone concertos on that tape. I played that tape every day for a couple of years. When I had a gig I still used my King 3B and the Benge 12C because most gigs were in big band on first and second part.

During that time with the tape my vibrato evolved and I also began to feel the music differently. I noticed I could express myself better with the horns especially after I learned to control my vibrato. It was no longer notes on a paper and that was because of all playing from memory. The discipline had served me well. The struggle with fitting a certain mouthpiece also was history and once I noticed I could go in the reverse order from bass to tenor to alto I found I had evolved because I couldn't do that as I started. I had took that as something that just needs to be one of my limitations, suddenly it wasn't.

Much later on in 2013 I became a collector and started to explore the eBay for trombones. I then learned I could handle all the horns I bought if I choose the right size of mouthpiece and accepted they needed to be played differently to sound at its best. I started to buy a lot of mouthpieces because I noticed that did a great bit of difference.

All those things; mouthpiece, pipe, material, construction do make a big difference, I agree but I think the industry really want us to think the horns out there needs to be configured to match the players because that's where the money is. If everybody started to play vintage horns then there will not be a need for new horns. If they notice the buyers are into vintage then the industry want you to rebuild your horns and put Thayers on them because that brings money to the table too.

Many horns of certain mass produced brands may have been sold with a lot of stress and needs to be taken apart, that's fine, since there were a lot of sloppy jobs done in factories where they did build horns with poor quality control and not by hands of good experienced workers. The workers put them together with a lot of wires which meant they were under stress. That is sure reason to take apart and put together, but other modifications on any old horn is questionable to me. Could be good or could be bad.

I think a lot of it is psychological. If you believe, it will help you.

Either you are an ear man or you are a gear man. I sort of have changed from a gear man to be an ear man. I still have a lot of gear but as I live by the philosophy I need to adopt my face and playing to the horn and not the other way I find myself in the ear-man category.

And that Aebeline Conn 88h I played 84-88 and did not think fit my playing is now a very good horn when I use a special ordered Hammand 12M mouthpiece that has a Remington taper. The Denis Wick 6BL had a Morse taper. It wobbles and does not fit. It is a big difference to play a mouthpiece that fits the tapers of those old horns. No one at the accademy told me about that. The Wick 6BL I bought from oneof my teachers, a very fine player who had a Bach 42. I guess he did not know the mouthpiece he sold me did not fit my old Conn 88h horn. I learned about Morse tapers and Remington tapers at the old TTF many years after when I started to read somewhere in 2004.

/Tom

[Kbiggs]

I think we cannot emphasize enough the influence Denis Wick has had on the British trombone community, or even the British brass-playing community. After he smuggled in a few Conns post-WWII, the British trombone and brass scene changed. Period.

My understanding is that the breakthrough was when the NY Phil visited shortly after the war. Wick then amplified the effect by bringing in many instruments over the years for, ahem, personal use. I suspect that there's growing variety now with all the new makers (I've seen a few Courtois amongst the college kids), and I believe the LSO section has gone over to Yamaha.

We may both be right. What I remember is the NY Phil visit was the catalyst, the event or “a ha!” moment that got London (and by extension British) trombonIsts to see and hear (a) large-bore (or “wide” bore) horns in action and appreciate their sound, and (B) a concept of section playing. Then, after Mr. Wick was able to import Conns by any means possible, the change came by replacing the small-bore Bessons, etc., with large-bore Conns.

[Bach5G]

“and (B) a concept of section playing“

?

What were they doing before the NYP showed up?

[paulyg]

I get you and "the new owner is extremely happy with it". I'm not saying you are wrong, but to check your theory you need to go back to that vintage horn to try now and then and see if it is still a bad match for you.

/Tom

Some questions will never be answered. I'm not looking back.

[Kbiggs]

“and (B) a concept of section playing“

?

What were they doing before the NYP showed up?

I would have to re-read Wick’s Trombone Technique and various other interviews he’s had over the years, but IIRC, he described it as something like three musicians that played together but did not have good section playing.

My understanding (WARNING: OPINION AHEAD!) is that prior to the NY Phil’s visit and the use of large-bore horns (Conns and Holtons), British symphonic trombonists did not have a unified sound or a unified concept of articulation, phrasing, and balance. In other words—again, my interpretation—is that they did not always start and end notes the same way.

I haven’t any idea whether this also applied to trombone playing in brass bands, symphonic bands, or military bands.

Regardless, I would defer to a British trombonist’s view on this...

[GBP]

Maybe a lot of others feel the way I do. I don't want to be bothered with dents, worn inner stockings, worn or shot valves, worn lacquer, misaligned slides, etc - even if a classic vintage horn might have a certain je ne sais quoi. I want to play a new, bright shiny horn. Modernized 'em if you got 'em, but I'll take a new one or two, please.

I like more modern horns for similar reasons.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

[Posaunus]

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?

[Jimkinkella]

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.
Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?

I’m thinking Instrument Innovations (Olsen).

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Getting a new valve for one of my Williams 10 is on my to-do list.

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.
Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn

[Jimkinkella]

Noah G picked up a Williams 10 with dual Thayers a few years ago; it’s absolutely amazing, and yes I tried to buy it.
Not sure if the story of how it got that way, but man it turned out fantastic.

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn

Noah said he would pass it on to me!
He owes me now!
Fantastic horn....

[FOSSIL]

What valves would you consider to preserve the "specialness" of this trombone?

I’m thinking Instrument Innovations (Olsen).

Don't do it... find a Meinelsmidt (?) valve. Standard rotor. The one on my 70H is as good as new with it's nickel silver core. What's up with yours ?

Chris

[mrdeacon]

I have to agree with Chris on this one HawaiiTromboneGuy.

The Olsen rotors are not bad by any means and they really do blow fantastic but they did change the feel and blow of my Minick (with a similar J bend tuning slide) pretty significantly. The horn does blow more open and has a wider sound. All good things... but still different. I am happy with how the horn turned out!

I would go Chris's route and find a nice "standard" rotor. Rotax would probably be the largest "modern" valve I would use. If I were to do it all over again I'd probably use Rotax.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions! I've got before and after pictures of the modifications so you can see how some stuff got moved around.

[slipmo]

*facepalm* I owe you one Jim!

That really is an amazing instrument. Thayer valves don't always work on vintage horns, but it really did on that one! The proportions were correct. The nice thing about that particular horn, the J bend tuning slide was integrated as much as it could have been with the thayers.

I modernized one of my 1920s Conn 66H trombones, which was already in need of repair. First I put a standard rotary on it, but have since installed a Laetzsch full flow valve, which really brought the instrument to life. In this case, I was able to "plug and play" for all intents and purposes the original wrap without serious modification.

I know the current owner of that horn and he says the same about about it. I’ve never been a huge fan of Thayer valves, but I’d look the other way for that horn

Noah said he would pass it on to me!
He owes me now!
Fantastic horn....

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I have to agree with Chris on this one HawaiiTromboneGuy.

The Olsen rotors are not bad by any means and they really do blow fantastic but they did change the feel and blow of my Minick (with a similar J bend tuning slide) pretty significantly. The horn does blow more open and has a wider sound. All good things... but still different. I am happy with how the horn turned out!

I would go Chris's route and find a nice "standard" rotor. Rotax would probably be the largest "modern" valve I would use. If I were to do it all over again I'd probably use Rotax.

Feel free to shoot me a message if you have any questions! I've got before and after pictures of the modifications so you can see how some stuff got moved around.

I appreciate the info! I’ll be sending the horn off to Benn Hannson to see what he thinks the best route would be. This is for the 10 that previously belonged to Karl DeKarske.

[imsevimse]

An example of what I had in mind is a Elkhart Conn 62H. From lead pipe to bell this what I had in mind.

1. Pull the original leadpipe and convert to interchangeable leadpipes.
2. Have the slide gone through thoroughly, replace felts/cork.
3. Split the triggers and make comfortable lever cover/paddle.
4. Convert string linkage to miniballs.
5. Do any necessary rehab on the valves to make them function like new and be quiet. I don't think I would get into valve replacement.
6. Have a D slide made for the second valve.
7. Dent work but no lacquer replacement

This is all theoretical at this point.

Number 3 and 4 is connected. If you split the triggers you will have linkage and the string is gone or else you need to discuss this conversion with the tech. You could keep it for the thumb but for the second valve there need to be linkage and then the string is gone on the second valve. If anyone have a double valve with split triggers combined with strings in both then let me know and put a picture here. I'm interested how that looks.

I have one Elkhart Conn 73h and one Elkhart Conn 62h. I did split the triggers on the Conn 73h and it works great but not faster. The experience with the 73h means I will keep the 62h as is. I will keep the rollers between the side by side triggers because the very short throw on strings compensates for the longer throw on the split trigger mechanism. I'm sure the 73h know is a lot easier for modern players and therfore is more attractive to play, but I've noticed I am equally fast on the old side by side trigger. I have now played them next to eachother and compared and I'm not faster on the split triggers. It's about the same. A Holton tr180 is another thing because the original comes with linkage anyway.
This is my experience so I will keep the strings on my Elkhart 62h. I've done the number 6 on both horns and that is undoubtedly a good upgrade.

/Tom

[GeirHorns]

Hi Tom,

I did on my 62H the split trigger conversion and kept he string linkage. It is fantastic short throw!
The Bending wasn't to easy, but once you done it, I think I will be faster on the next one.
Sorry I don't get how to attach a Picture via the Chat here.
But I would love to send you one, so you can get it done by some tech in your area!

Greetings Benedikt

[Tatsu]

Hello, from a high school student in Japan
I recently acquired an instrument labeled "Boosey & Hawkes Regent II". It appears to be an older instrument, but I do not know the official model number. I would like to know the model number of this model.
There is nothing on the instrument itself to indicate the model number, only the engraving "Boosey & Hawkes Regent II" on the bell. The bell is silver plated.

[imsevimse]

Hi Tom,

I did on my 62H the split trigger conversion and kept he string linkage. It is fantastic short throw!
The Bending wasn't to easy, but once you done it, I think I will be faster on the next one.
Sorry I don't get how to attach a Picture via the Chat here.
But I would love to send you one, so you can get it done by some tech in your area!

Greetings Benedikt

Interesting! I think pictures would interest everyone here. Hope you can do it somehow.

/Tom

[GeirHorns]

so first try for the pictures, thanks to Matt K for the tutorial video!