Bach 5 sizes

[dukesboneman]

With all the permutations that Bach has in the "5" range. How come there is no 5C?
You have a 7C, 6 3/4C and for some reason a 4C , but NO 5C.
I wonder why? You would think there would be a call for it.

[Burgerbob]

Bach being Bach.

[Redthunder]

Bach being Bach.

I wish there were a better explanation than this.

Makes even less sense considering in the trumpet line of mouthpieces you can find multiple options for cup depths and sizes for every rim size.

[Kevbach33]

I too have been intrigued by this curious omission... I like the rim profile of the (large shank) 5GS I own.

In the (small shank) 5 series we have:
5 (medium, would be slightly deeper than a theoretical 5C, likely a nice concert band mouthpiece for small bore players, or 3rd bone jazz players maybe?)
5GS (deeper, and a larger throat and backbore, great for .525" bones, I hear)
5G (even deeper, has the large shank throat and backbore on a small shank, nice for baritone and euphonium?)

If Bach still does custom mouthpieces I wouldn't be surprised if there was a template available for a 5C, but at what cost?

[Reedman1]

Of course, you can get a 101 rim and a C cup from Doug Elliott. Or permutations thereof. And he offers some custom rims for a modest upgrade fee.

[CalgaryTbone]

Bach also sometimes changes the rim shape or even size between different models with the same number. The 4C is between the size of a 4G or 4, and the 5G or 5. Then there are all the different 6.5 variations, with letters that don't seem to make sense, with a 6.75C that has the same rim size.

I guess part of it is that it's an old company, and lots of sizes were added after the numbering system was already established. The 5GS was added to the line-up when I was a student, and the small shank versions came later too (except the 5 that was the small shank offering).

Jim Scott

[GabrielRice]

In the large shanks there is also a 5GB with a different rim profile and a 5GL with the deep cup of the 5G but smaller throat of the 5GS. The 5GL is particularly interesting and works great for some students I've given it to.

The Yamaha 51 series is also worth a look in that size range.

[modelerdc]

It's important to remember that the Bach series of mouthpieces were developed a long time ago, and the line was basically complete by the time Bach sold his company and retired in the early 1960s. For a long time the Bach company did little to develop new models. The 3, 4, and 5GB series were done for Thomas Beversdorff and his students as Beversdorff preferred a traditional narrow round rim of the German school, the cups were the same as the stock 3,4, and 5G. For decades the largest bass trombone mouthpiece Bach made was the 1 1/2G. In the late 1970s, in response to the popularity of the Schilke 59 and 60, Bach came out with the 1G and 1 1/4G and 1 1/4GM. These haven't been as popular with players, I suspect they were developed by someone at Bach who didn't play bass trombone. The Megatone series was Bach's response to heavy mouthpieces such as Monette, wick heavy models. Other than the extra mass, and usually a slightly larger throat these are generally similar to standard Bach models. The 5GL is said to be modeled after an old 5G owned by Mark Lawrence that had a shallower cup than the common 5G. My example has the standard 5G dimensions except it is a little shallower. Probably because the G cup didn't work for everyone on tenor trombone, and many players were using mouthpieces like the Giardinelli Symphony T, Bach did develop the 5GS, remember the 5G was originally intended by BAch to be a Bass trombone mpc, back before WWII. Intended for tenor trombone playing, is has the 5 rim, a cup between a 5G and the 6 1/2AL, and a throat like a 6 1/2AL, the large shank version has a back bore that's flares different from other Bach mouthpieces. The Artisan series are a modern development, and I haven't needed to buy any so I don't know how they compare.

A second thing to remember is that while most Bach mouthpieces are part of a system, some were developed for individual players, and may be different from most other Bach mouthpieces. The Bach 6 1/2AL was developed from the Clarke series of mouthpieces made for a prominent pre WWII player in New York. It's somewhat wide rounded rim and large throat are unlike other small shank Bach mouthpieces (the 5GS would come much later) I've mentioned the 3GB, 4GB, and 5GB developed for Beversdorff, and the 5GL above.

If Bach has never made a 5C, it's because in the years when Bach developed the line there was probably little demand for such a mouthpiece in that time period. In modern times I think that the Bach company doesn't understand the trombone market place. If they did the artisan line would include things like a 5AL, 5C, 4G-5G, 4GS, 4AL, 6 1/2C and completely new designs to replace the 1G and 1 1/4G.

[bimmerman]

Bach also sometimes changes the rim shape or even size between different models with the same number. The 4C is between the size of a 4G or 4, and the 5G or 5. Then there are all the different 6.5 variations, with letters that don't seem to make sense, with a 6.75C that has the same rim size.

I guess part of it is that it's an old company, and lots of sizes were added after the numbering system was already established. The 5GS was added to the line-up when I was a student, and the small shank versions came later too (except the 5 that was the small shank offering).

Jim Scott

The 6.5 thing can make some sense-- if you assume it and its variants were designed in small shank form first, you have:

6.5A (standard small shank ~0.230" throat/backbore)
6.5AM (upsized "medium" ~0.250 sized throat/backbore)
6.5AL ("large" ~0.261" sized throat/backbore).

So, in a sense, you go from standard/small, medium, large with 6.5A / AM / AL.

This makes sense for small shank but falls apart for large shank-- because the 6.5A uses the standard throat/backbore for its shank, a large shank 6.5A uses the standard 0.276" and corresponding backbore for a large shank piece. As the AM and AL variants are non-standard size they carry over to large shank unaltered. This makes the 6.5A the largest of the large shank 6.5s instead of the smallest.

Not saying that makes any sense nowadays, but it seems to be the method to the madness.

I used small shank 5GS and 5G for many years on my .525/547 horn, until I got a setup from Doug. I played around with a small shank 4 (and 7) that had a factory-custom 6.5AM throat and backbore, and have a small shank converted 3G as well. To be honest, Doug's pieces just work better than trying to hack Bach pieces ever has...for me. That 4 is pretty close though.

Allegedly there was a 9C that didn't survive past the early NY years. I believe Noah of Brassark has mentioned it before. Point being, the catalog changed a lot. It wouldn't surprise me for a 5C and 6C to have existed at some point.