Small bore mouthpiece battle

[MagnumH]

I've been in the midst of an on-going mouthpiece battle for a while - a King 12C (which I assume is a copy of a Bach 12C) versus a Wick 9BS. Both, obviously, small and designed with lead and jazz playing in mind. I just switched horns from a King 2B to a BAC 500/508 dual bore, aiming for a slightly larger sound and more solid low-mid register. I mostly play commercial, funk, new orleans jazz and street band, and generally I'm not a...subtle...player. Ultimately I'm looking an all rounder set up for all of the above. I've played the 12C on the 2B for about 10 years before picking up the 9BS last year, and the BAC this year. The 12C is definitely the mpc I "grew up on", as it were.

Consistently I've found that the 12C has much better high range, in both how high I can play and how accurately/efficiently I can play up there, whilst anything above an A feels like a battle on the Wick 9BS. But the Wick is definitely fuller and fatter in the staff, and has an easier pedal register.

During self-isolation I really upped my practice time, normally dialing in 2-4 hours a day on lip slurs, range building, etudes, etc..., focusing purely on the 9BS, to try and give it a fair shot. After 3 weeks my comfortable range increased from high Bb to, maybe, high C, but anything above it really a struggle. And I still found that moving around up there felt like a fight with the horn, with split notes and sore embouchures galore.

Yesterday I switched back to the 12C again, and immediately my comfort range went up to a D, with Eb-F squeaking out again. Everything up there felt easier and more agile. BUT the low-mid range still feels a bit weak.

I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts on all this? Both pieces, on paper, look similar-ish to me, with the Wick a touch larger in rim, cup, and backbore. I've also read that Wick rims aren't for everyone...

Ultimately I'm sticking with the 12C for the moment, and I'll work improving on the low range sound. But I suspect the "best" piece for me is elsewhere - no idea what though...

[ssking2b]

Try a Bach 11C or a Wick 10CS.

[TromboneMonkey]

With respect, I don't think a 9BS was designed with jazz playing in mind. The 7CS is of a similar rim size to the 9BS and will bridge the gap, as will the 10CS, which is is in between a 12C and 9BS.

[Doug Elliott]

Totally guessing here, and I don't like to do that without more information, but...
Some embouchures really need small rim sizes and are very sensitive to losing high range with anything even slightly bigger.
I'm not sure about a King 12C but don't assume it's a "copy" of a Bach 12C, it could be significantly different. One "old school" way of measuring small mouthpieces is to set a US Quarter (coin) on the rim and compare how high it sits. Check both of your mouthpieces, I'll bet the 12C is quite a bit smaller. I would go for a mouthpiece with a rim the diameter of your King 12C with a slightly deeper cup to open up the mid and low range response and sound.

Again, I'm guessing about your embouchure just from the evidence. For a different player I might suggest the opposite, depending on embouchure type.

EDIT:
Now I see your picture in your avatar. Based on that I think I'm wrong... I would put you on a bigger rim but a shallow cup. Oh well... I'll leave my reply because it does apply to some players.

[Vegasbound]

The 9bs has a 25mm rim size so smaller than the 10cs but bigger than your 12c, I would suggest you have a chat with Doug

Also the change in your horn will make a difference and of course any equipment choice is a compromis

[dukesboneman]

What about trying a Bach 12? Give you a little rounder sound.

[MagnumH]

With respect, I don't think a 9BS was designed with jazz playing in mind. The 7CS is of a similar rim size to the 9BS and will bridge the gap, as will the 10CS, which is is in between a 12C and 9BS.

It's very possible I may have mis-understood the term "lead playing" in the Wick comparison...

Screen Shot 2020-04-17 at 13.16.32.png

The 7CS and 10CS could be a good shout, and I know some players have had success with a 6BS on similar horns.

What about trying a Bach 12? Give you a little rounder sound.

Interesting shout!

Totally guessing here, and I don't like to do that without more information, but...
Some embouchures really need small rim sizes and are very sensitive to losing high range with anything even slightly bigger.
I'm not sure about a King 12C but don't assume it's a "copy" of a Bach 12C, it could be significantly different. One "old school" way of measuring small mouthpieces is to set a US Quarter (coin) on the rim and compare how high it sits. Check both of your mouthpieces, I'll bet the 12C is quite a bit smaller. I would go for a mouthpiece with a rim the diameter of your King 12C with a slightly deeper cup to open up the mid and low range response and sound.

From what I've been able to find out about it - mostly on this forum since literature is scarce - the King 12C is very similar to a Benge 12C, with an inner rim diameter of 0.960". Apparently just a little bigger all round than the Bach 12C, especially in the throat.
I just tried out the quarter test and you're right - it's significantly higher on the 12C!

Screen Shot 2020-04-17 at 14.08.43.png

EDIT:
Now I see your picture in your avatar. Based on that I think I'm wrong... I would put you on a bigger rim but a shallow cup.

Fascinating! Looking for a deeper cup/backbore with a similar rim was my initial thought, but possibly I'm very wrong. At some point when isolation lessens and gigs/earnings start flowing again I'd love to have a lesson/consultation - I actually spoke to you at ATW this year and tried a couple things but it was before I got my new horn, and unfortunately I don't recall what I liked now!

Thanks everyone so far for your thoughts and input!

Matt Hawke

[bimmerman]

I'd echo the Bach 11C and/or Wick 10CS. They feel very similar to me. Other options which worked better for my face but similar in size were the Bach 7C (a bigger 12C, effectively) and the 6 3/4 C. I really liked the 6.75, which felt like a bigger 11C but not 6.5 AL bigger.

Now though, with Doug's help I'm on a quasi-4C with his system (XT102, C+). I love it. Better endurance, better high range (can get Eb, F to speak after weeks off, it's nuts), better low...it really just works better for me especially combined with his lessons on how to use my embouchure effectively. My stupid-squealy-useless range did decrease vs the 7C but everything else has improved drastically. Mini testimonial.

[MagnumH]

I'd echo the Bach 11C and/or Wick 10CS. They feel very similar to me. Other options which worked better for my face but similar in size were the Bach 7C (a bigger 12C, effectively) and the 6 3/4 C. I really liked the 6.75, which felt like a bigger 11C but not 6.5 AL bigger.

Now though, with Doug's help I'm on a 4C equivalent with his system (XT102, C+). I love it. Better endurance, better high range (can get Eb, F to speak after weeks off, it's nuts), better low...it really just works better for me especially combined with his lessons on how to use my embouchure effectively. My stupid-squealy-useless range did decrease vs the 7C but everything else has improved drastically. Mini testimonial.

Very interesting! And a great testimonial. The 7C and 6¾C definitely caught my eye too. The 4C equivalent seems like a big leap from there, but that's what the expert help can do, I guess! I do have a Bach 5G lying around that I've experimented with too, though I suspect that's altogether too large from these horns.

[bimmerman]

Very interesting! And a great testimonial. The 7C and 6¾C definitely caught my eye too. The 4C equivalent seems like a big leap from there, but that's what the expert help can do, I guess! I do have a Bach 5G lying around that I've experimented with too, though I suspect that's altogether too large from these horns.

I was using a 5G for orchestra and the 6.75 for jazz band (16M and/or 2B), so the jump to a 4 rim wasn't totally out of the blue. It took surprisingly little time to be comfortable on the 4. Plus, now I can use the same rim and just change cup depth for big or little horn stuff.

[Doug Elliott]

I keep notes...
You liked LT SN102, C+, D3 at ATW

That's not even close to what you're talking about. Note that is IS close to what Bimmerman ended up with.

For the kind of playing you do, I might suggest an MT N102 and a shallower cup, maybe B+ or C.
You won't see MT 102 listed but I can make it. The MT series would help bring out the high range better.
N is for Narrow. S is for Silver. in case you were wondering.
You can fine tune my mouthpieces in a lot of ways.

[MagnumH]

Haha, I feel particularly clueless just now. Just goes to show you can’t shop on spec alone...

That’s a very interesting recommendation- I’m definitely interested.

Out of interest, I swapped between the 12C and my 5G during practice today, and the 5G feels very comfortable on the face. I’m sure it’s too big for my usual playing on this horn - the sound is too wide, it needs too much air and was also significantly flatter than the 12C, and anything above Bb is a struggle again - but the comfort factor was great.

Thanks again, Doug - I hope I can get in touch formally soon!

[harrisonreed]

If you are squeaking in the upper register and cap out at a D or Eb on a 12C, I think that you're playing a rim that is too small for you, too. Doug Elliott says that most people are. I used to cap out around there on a 5Gish sized mouthpiece and my range increased in both directions when I switched to a larger rim.

You can't confuse rim size with the sound. Doug's system can help. I don't know how he picks the right rim for people, but for small bore, the C or C+ cups mate to larger rims and you'd swear you were playing a much smaller mouthpiece.

[CharlieB]

Deleted

[MagnumH]

If you are squeaking in the upper register and cap out at a D or Eb on a 12C, I think that you're playing a rim that is too small for you, too. Doug Elliott says that most people are. I used to cap out around there on a 5Gish sized mouthpiece and my range increased in both directions when I switched to a larger rim.

You can't confuse rim size with the sound. Doug's system can help. I don't know how he picks the right rim for people, but for small bore, the C or C+ cups mate to larger rims and you'd swear you were playing a much smaller mouthpiece.

Yeah, in ten years of professional(ish) playing I've never had a reliable high range above a D, the Eb-F is new and undoubtedly not consistent. I'm very excited to try the larger rim/shallow cup combo from DE at some point!

[BurckhardtS]

Because it was the right choice for my emobuchure type, I have had zero problems in playing a large rim size on tenor. I play my XT N 106 rim on my small bore, and I have had to play up to Fs and F#s on that rim, and it makes the high range better and the low range better.

E: And so far, no one has critiqued me for having a 'woofy' sound at all. Quite the opposite, actually. (Caveat, I have no idea what embouchure type you are)

[MagnumH]

Because it was the right choice for my emobuchure type, I have had zero problems in playing a large rim size on tenor. I play my XT N 106 rim on my small bore, and I have had to play up to Fs and F#s on that rim, and it makes the high range better and the low range better.

E: And so far, no one has critiqued me for having a 'woofy' sound at all. Quite the opposite, actually. (Caveat, I have no idea what embouchure type you are)

Oh great! What cup size do you use? Seems like there’s a good trend of success for larger rims here!

I don’t really know what embouchure type I am either. I suspect a “very high” type, though I definitely shift for pedals (one of the bad habits I should work on breaking...)

[harrisonreed]

FWIW, I use a XT C+ on my 3B and it sounds very characteristic of a 3B, commercial sound. The rim is not an Elliott rim, but it's like an XT106N.

I use the same on alto, but with a B cup and alto shank.

[Doug Elliott]

I've seen all 3 of you guys play and you're all the same, Very High or IIIA. The small rim is why you have to shift - a bigger rim will minimize or eliminate it.

[TromboneMonkey]

Don't be afraid of deeper cups either. Doug sold me a D cup at ATW and I'm in love with it, although I never would've expected to have liked it. It helps me get more lip in the mouthpiece without becoming shrill. I might end up going even deeper; 6 1/2 AL - type pieces tend to work just fine for me but the throats are generally much too large to give me the resonance I want.