Has Anyone Else Built a Frankenbone from a Chinese Horn?

[KingOfDreamland]

First of all, I know that buying a cheap Chinese horn and ultimately spending more money in parts/technician work to upgrade it over time isn't preferable to spending the money up front to get a good horn out of the box for most people, so I'll preface this by saying that the Schiller I bought really isn't a bad horn, and I'm doing this more in the spirit of my inability to leave well enough alone than to try and make an unplayable horn playable. I shipped the trombone off to Doug at The Brass Exchange to have the bell swapped for one off of a project Blessing B88 that he has had on his bench for awhile, and am also planning on picking up an 8" Edwards bell that he has, just to give myself a couple different bell options and a spare in case something happens to one or the other. If that goes smoothly, I'll eventually replace the axial flow valve with an Olsen-built axial flow, and possibly replace the slide at some point as well. All questions of how much this is going to cost me in the long run and how much I would've saved by buying a used pro horn to begin with aside, is this something anyone else here has done before? If so, I'm curious what your experience with it was, what sort of pitfalls you ran into, etc. For me, this is a cool project that will let me do some experimentation to fine-tune what I really want in a large-bore trombone, and to ultimately have something custom. Hopefully I'm not the only one here who's wanted to do something like this.

[Burgerbob]

Personally? I'd just buy a cheap 88H or 42 of some sort and work with that.

[hyperbolica]

Yes, I think his name was Pete Edwards built a compact bass in C with an ascending valve from a Schiller donor, I think. You can't buy one of those, so he just built his own from a cheap starting point.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082

I bought a junk 8h frame and a junk 36b bell and put them together with the slides I already have for a small 8h/78h combo.
I've also put together an Olds S20 with a Duo Gravis double valve set to get a small double bass.
For the king of all frankenbones, I think Funkhoss takes that cake. You'll have to look it up. It's a wild project. Just look it up. I'm sure he used some Chinese horns in there.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ss#p103267

[KingOfDreamland]

Aidan, I actually considered doing that awhile back, taking an old "utility" 88H or 42B and doing something with it. Who knows, I still might down the road. I just figured I had the Schiller already, and I knew I could get the initial work on it done quickly and at very little cost to me, so I decided to start there. It's an odd starting point for a project for sure, but I think most of the guts of the Schiller work well enough that upgrading more major pieces like the bell, valve, and slide will make it into a really solid player that, if I play my cards right, won't be a bank-breaker by any means.

Yes, I think his name was Pete Edwards built a compact bass in C with an ascending valve from a Schiller donor, I think. You can't buy one of those, so he just built his own from a cheap starting point.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2082

I bought a junk 8h frame and a junk 36b bell and put them together with the slides I already have for a small 8h/78h combo.
I've also put together an Olds S20 with a Duo Gravis double valve set to get a small double bass.
For the king of all frankenbones, I think Funkhoss takes that cake. You'll have to look it up. It's a wild project. Just look it up. I'm sure he used some Chinese horns in there.
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ss#p103267

Thank you very much for those links, I'll definitely have to take a look at those. I did glance at the one Funkhoss built, just the list of horns that donated parts to that project is impressive. I'll definitely be diving more into that thread when i get the chance.

[Burgerbob]

I would say if you buy any "real" parts (Olsen valve, nice slide) then you should be transplanting them a good horn. I've seen plenty of 42BOs for under 1k lately.

[KingOfDreamland]

I would say if you buy any "real" parts (Olsen valve, nice slide) then you should be transplanting them a good horn. I've seen plenty of 42BOs for under 1k lately.

I'll definitely keep that in mind, as I do eventually want to pick up an Olsen valve. Luckily, the bells are easy enough to convert (the Edwards may be a direct swap depending on how faithful the people who make the Schiller horns were in copying the T350) that I'm not going to be investing much in those, and they'd be an easy transplant if I do want to make a custom 42.

[Matt K]

I've mostly dealt with the alto side of things because its usually more difficult to get low price parts for alto than it is tenor. Generally speaking, Aidan is spot on; the parts you generally swap out are generally the expensive parts anyway. So unfortunately, the pitfalls I ran into are precisely what you don't want to hear: that the long-run costs of the project outweighed what I could have gotten starting out with a higher quality instrument. You can get pretty inexpensive bells, tuning slides, and the various misc. parts like linkages, slide receivers, tenons, cork barrels, crooks, etc. from pro level horns. Not to mention as pointed out as well that you can get a decent pro horn for around the same price as one of these new. Particularly because the most expensive parts are often the best things to swap: the slide and the valve.

The slide because of both action, play ability, and possibly a better suited leadpipe. If I were putting a tenor together, I'd start with a good slide and build from there. This is where it makes sense, in my opinion, to think of the horn as a sunk cost. Some of those imported bell sections are actually pretty decent with a good slide. But if you're talking about replacing the inners and outers you're 50% the cost of the instrument! Whereas you can buy something used for only a marginal increase more if the only thing you upgraded was the slide.

On the valve side, it is very often not a "drop in" type replacement, even among valves of the same type. That, of course, even includes the amount you'd spend on soldering and whatnot. Tubing is actually pretty cheap depending on who you are getting supplies from. The entire single valve kit from OE Thayer was like $600 last I checked.

So lets say you get a Bach 42 or Conn 88 on fleabay; I just checked and it looks like AIdain's pricing is not too far off the mark. Lets say you end up spending $800 on it + a $200 slide alignment. A $600 kit from OE Thayer + the labor to assemble it puts you probably ~$2k. And it will probably be pretty solid.

Lets say you wanted to upgrade the Schiller. You'll probably end up spending $5-600 on a used slide (more if new). If you can get the tuning slide receiver from them... that's probably okay. But there's a chance you can't get that part so you might have to swap out the tuning slide receiver, tuning slide, and bell side tuning slide receiver + additional mounting hardware. Used you can get those for ~$400. You can probably reuse some of the tubing, but probably not all and the linkages are often really not good on those horns, if they even fit, which they probably won't. So you're still out probably $500 because the tubing is actually cheap relative to the rest of the parts + the labor to put all that together. Assuming that you don't have to replace the receiver (which you also might have to), you are probably all in for $600+400+500=$1500 + labor which is probably going to be around the same price putting you about on equal footing with the "pro" horn.

[Burgerbob]

It's worth noting that OE Thayer is no longer in business, so those tubing kits are not available.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

Yes. Three. Sort of.

Two horns listed in my stable have some Chinese-made parts. My large bore Frankenbach ( isn’t really much of a Bach... ) has a some Selman parts in the valve section. And a Jupiter slide, but it’s quite good. And my small bore Frankenbach has heavy nickel outer slide stuff from an Antigua Winds student horn. The Antigua Winds horn wasn’t even that bad. It felt sort of like a 354 mixed with a Bach student horn. The bell of that is whole and might be used in another project. Finally I did some practicing on a Chinese stencil of some sort of medium bore, Euro shank, straight bass/tenor thing. It’s mixed with a Jupiter student horn now. It will continue to be a tool to practice soldering.

[Matt K]

It's worth noting that OE Thayer is no longer in business, so those tubing kits are not available.

[KingOfDreamland]

Thankfully I was able to work out a really good deal with Doug to get the bell/tuning slide part of the deal taken care of, but as you mentioned, if I were to do more upgrades, the valve and slide would be the two most expensive parts of the trombone to replace, and the only two things left in need of replacement if I went that route. That's where the dilemma of higher up front cost but lower overall cost vs. the opposite comes into play. I'm starting to lean more heavily toward waiting for the right Bach or Conn pro horn to come along as opposed to dumping the money into the Schiller to make it into an equivalent with only a small amount of the tubing from the Schiller left over in the end, but I also wonder how well the valve on the Schiller will hold up over time. The slide on it is sufficient for my needs and does have multiple leadpipe options, so I'm sure I could get by with what I have there. If the only thing I end up customizing on it is the option for multiple bells, I'm not going to feel too bad as long as I can budget enough to either buy a pro-level horn that I like out of the box or get a cheap one that can easily be customized to my liking.

[GabrielRice]

First off, no, I haven't and have no plans to.

But one of the very best French horn players in the Boston area - principal of the Boston Pops Esplanade Orchestra among many other things - now plays horns that he puts together from various parts. He buys cheap horns from China because he likes the valves, and replaces the bells with parts scavenged from old student model horns he likes. I'm not clear where he sources leadpipes, but I think it's possible they are simply copper tubing from the hardware store.

He used to play a vintage Geyer, but it was stolen. Then he was playing the Conn Geyer wrap horn (11D?) for a while. I think he sounds even better now on the horns he builds.

[KingOfDreamland]

First off, no, I haven't and have no plans to.

But one of the very best French horn players in the Boston area - principal of the Boston Pops Esplanade Orchestra among many other things - now plays horns that he puts together from various parts. He buys cheap horns from China because he likes the valves, and replaces the bells with parts scavenged from old student model horns he likes. I'm not clear where he sources leadpipes, but I think it's possible they are simply copper tubing from the hardware store.

He used to play a vintage Geyer, but it was stolen. Then he was playing the Conn Geyer wrap horn (11D?) for a while. I think he sounds even better now on the horns he builds.

That's pretty impressive being able to build instruments like that from Chinese/student level horns, but I'm sure at his level he knows exactly how he wants the instrument to respond and has figured out a combination that works really well for him. I wish I had the craftsmanship to do that kind of work myself, my Schiller would be a really good candidate for that sort of work if I did, but I don't trust myself enough to be able to make it look clean and professional.

Back to the subject of Bach 42s: I'm curious if anyone has a recommendation for finding a rough one to have restored/modified. I checked eBay but most of the 42s on there now are in pretty decent shape, and I know Dillon Music has one for just over $1000 that needs some TLC, but I didn't see as much out there as I was expecting. Is it common to see them here?

[FullPedalTrombonist]

DJ. I always contacted him through the forum, though.

[KingOfDreamland]

DJ. I always contacted him through the forum, though.

Good call, I don't think I've seen him here much but I believe I still have him on Facebook.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

My main bass is a mashup of various parts that plays and responds pretty much ideally for me. I love the idea of making your own stuff. The issue is ( and I think it was Gabe who said this on TTF a while back ) if something irreplaceable breaks then that’s it. For example I could definitely get more red brass slide tubes, but Kanstul is out of business and they won’t be the same as what I have. I don’t think any available options to replace parts for my horn would be a downgrade in any way, but there’s a balance struck with these specific parts that may not work with a different part

[KingOfDreamland]

My main bass is a mashup of various parts that plays and responds pretty much ideally for me. I love the idea of making your own stuff. The issue is ( and I think it was Gabe who said this on TTF a while back ) if something irreplaceable breaks then that’s it. For example I could definitely get more red brass slide tubes, but Kanstul is out of business and they won’t be the same as what I have. I don’t think any available options to replace parts for my horn would be a downgrade in any way, but there’s a balance struck with these specific parts that may not work with a different part

That brings up an interesting point about axial flow valves. Now that Thayer is out of business, I wonder how long Olsen will be building them. As far as I'm aware Bach is still making 42AFs and I think there are still other new options that come with axial flows, but I don't think they're near as common now as they were several years ago with Hagmanns and much better rotary valves being available.

[Matt K]

Back to the subject of Bach 42s: I'm curious if anyone has a recommendation for finding a rough one to have restored/modified. I checked eBay but most of the 42s on there now are in pretty decent shape, and I know Dillon Music has one for just over $1000 that needs some TLC, but I didn't see as much out there as I was expecting. Is it common to see them here?

The lower the price, the quicker they go. Within a month you'll probably find one but you have to be reasonably diligent when you're in the market. So all the usual places like you mentioned Dillon, Brassark, Brass Exchange, Sheridan, Baltimore Brass, eBay, here, etc.

[FullPedalTrombonist]

There’s always a good deal somewhere, but you have to be diligent. They do go fast.

The valves on my bass are 30 years old I think. Maintenance is the key to longevity. Worst case scenario is spending a lot for someone to make parts.

[KingOfDreamland]

Back to the subject of Bach 42s: I'm curious if anyone has a recommendation for finding a rough one to have restored/modified. I checked eBay but most of the 42s on there now are in pretty decent shape, and I know Dillon Music has one for just over $1000 that needs some TLC, but I didn't see as much out there as I was expecting. Is it common to see them here?

The lower the price, the quicker they go. Within a month you'll probably find one but you have to be reasonably diligent when you're in the market. So all the usual places like you mentioned Dillon, Brassark, Brass Exchange, Sheridan, Baltimore Brass, eBay, here, etc.

Doug seems like he moves a lot of instruments/parts, and he seems like a really good guy to work with, so I'll keep an eye on Brass Exchange for sure, but that gives me other options as well. I really appreciate all the info!

[KingOfDreamland]

I've mostly dealt with the alto side of things because its usually more difficult to get low price parts for alto than it is tenor. Generally speaking, Aidan is spot on; the parts you generally swap out are generally the expensive parts anyway. So unfortunately, the pitfalls I ran into are precisely what you don't want to hear: that the long-run costs of the project outweighed what I could have gotten starting out with a higher quality instrument. You can get pretty inexpensive bells, tuning slides, and the various misc. parts like linkages, slide receivers, tenons, cork barrels, crooks, etc. from pro level horns. Not to mention as pointed out as well that you can get a decent pro horn for around the same price as one of these new. Particularly because the most expensive parts are often the best things to swap: the slide and the valve.

The slide because of both action, play ability, and possibly a better suited leadpipe. If I were putting a tenor together, I'd start with a good slide and build from there. This is where it makes sense, in my opinion, to think of the horn as a sunk cost. Some of those imported bell sections are actually pretty decent with a good slide. But if you're talking about replacing the inners and outers you're 50% the cost of the instrument! Whereas you can buy something used for only a marginal increase more if the only thing you upgraded was the slide.

On the valve side, it is very often not a "drop in" type replacement, even among valves of the same type. That, of course, even includes the amount you'd spend on soldering and whatnot. Tubing is actually pretty cheap depending on who you are getting supplies from. The entire single valve kit from OE Thayer was like $600 last I checked.

So lets say you get a Bach 42 or Conn 88 on fleabay; I just checked and it looks like AIdain's pricing is not too far off the mark. Lets say you end up spending $800 on it + a $200 slide alignment. A $600 kit from OE Thayer + the labor to assemble it puts you probably ~$2k. And it will probably be pretty solid.

Lets say you wanted to upgrade the Schiller. You'll probably end up spending $5-600 on a used slide (more if new). If you can get the tuning slide receiver from them... that's probably okay. But there's a chance you can't get that part so you might have to swap out the tuning slide receiver, tuning slide, and bell side tuning slide receiver + additional mounting hardware. Used you can get those for ~$400. You can probably reuse some of the tubing, but probably not all and the linkages are often really not good on those horns, if they even fit, which they probably won't. So you're still out probably $500 because the tubing is actually cheap relative to the rest of the parts + the labor to put all that together. Assuming that you don't have to replace the receiver (which you also might have to), you are probably all in for $600+400+500=$1500 + labor which is probably going to be around the same price putting you about on equal footing with the "pro" horn.

After reading you and Aidan's advice and talking it over at length with Doug, I made the decision to leave the Schiller as it is from the factory and go the Bach 42BO route. I managed to find one that only needs to have the lacquer stripped and some valve adjustment for a steal, so I bought it and should have it early next week. It looks like the Olsens might have enough available tubing to do the AF conversion, but I'll need to discuss with them to see what all is needed. It'll probably take some time to piece everything together and have my tech do the conversion, but with school being out and spring coming up, now would be a good time to do it, and I'll have my Schiller to fall back on while it's in the shop.