Kanstul 1662 with 70 leadpipe?

[Rob1662]

As per my other post here- just back into playing, my Bach 2g appears to be held in position by the knurled screw end of the leadpipe and wobbles in the pipe if just gently placed in position.
Should the shank be holding the 2g in place further down the the pipe?
Is this a common problem?
Do I need a different leadpipe or mp shank?

Many questions - sorry!

[tbonesullivan]

Did you get the usual set of three leadpipes with the horn? Is there the same problem with all of them?

Also that's probably not a 70 leadpipe, it's an OL leadpipe, for "Open Legit". That was one of the optional leadpipes for their bass trombones. The standard ones I think were C, GR and 62.

[GabrielRice]

Does it sit securely if you give a gentle twist?

How old is your 2G? Does it have any other markings on it, like possibly an R stamped at the top of the shank just under the knurling between the shank and cup? That would indicate Remington shank, which would need a different receiver taper.

[WGWTR180]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

[GabrielRice]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

What do you do about it, Bill?

[RoscoTrombone]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

What do you do about it, Bill?

I have a Symington 2 & the shank is quite a bit longer/bigger width wise than a standard Bach 2. I use a Brass Ark pipe and it sticks out quite far,same with the pipes that came with my trombone.

I also have an older 110H and the mouthpiece goes in 2/3mm further but does still stick out quite a bit.

I'm not sure if it affects anything playing wise and I'm not wanting to risk getting it thinned down in case it goes wrong!

Slightly off topic but hey!

Ross

[mrdeacon]

I have a Symington 2 & the shank is quite a bit longer/bigger width wise than a standard Bach 2. I use a Brass Ark pipe and it sticks out quite far,same with the pipes that came with my trombone.

Ha! I was actually messing around and comparing my ZR Symington 2 to my Mount Vernons a couple of days ago so this is still fresh in my mind.

So the Symington 2 looks like it sticks out far but it actually goes in the correct depth. It looks farther out than it is.

Bill used one of my MV2G as the basis for the Symington 2 and the insertion depth is almost identical except the Symington shank is a touch longer. So that extra length is all inside the pipe. The Symington 2 sticks out almost the same as that original MV2G.

But the insertion depth is sorta all over the place, at least on the Mount Vernon 2Gs I have. One is like a normal Corp. 2G, one is identical to the Symington (the copied one), and another goes in an extra 2mm+ depending on the pipe. All different!

[mrdeacon]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

What mouthpiece do you use again? I feel like we had a conversation about this before...

At least with Brad's pipes and M&K I've had zero issues with insertion depth. Across the years of production too.

I think we all have different tolerances for what that acceptable depth is. Personally I've always gone by Doug's definition of what that depth should be.

[Rob1662]

There's a 62, 70 and an OL. All have the same problem, my 2g does not have any other markings on it.

Thanks

[RoscoTrombone]

I have a Symington 2 & the shank is quite a bit longer/bigger width wise than a standard Bach 2. I use a Brass Ark pipe and it sticks out quite far,same with the pipes that came with my trombone.

Ha! I was actually messing around and comparing my ZR Symington 2 to my Mount Vernons a couple of days ago so this is still fresh in my mind.

So the Symington 2 looks like it sticks out far but it actually goes in the correct depth. It looks farther out than it is.

Bill used one of my MV2G as the basis for the Symington 2 and the insertion depth is almost identical except the Symington shank is a touch longer. So that extra length is all inside the pipe. The Symington 2 sticks out almost the same as that original MV2G.

But the insertion depth is sorta all over the place, at least on the Mount Vernon 2Gs I have. One is like a normal Corp. 2G, one is identical to the Symington (the copied one), and another goes in an extra 2mm+ depending on the pipe. All different!

So it's all about perception! It's amazing how the brain can make something out of nothing!!

And at least there's consistency to all the inconsistency of nothing else

So what should be the correct depth then?

[tbonesullivan]

There's a 62, 70 and an OL. All have the same problem, my 2g does not have any other markings on it.

Thanks

That is really strange. Do you have any other large bore trombones you can try it in? Or other mouthpieces? The receiver for a large shank should all be the same. Never heard of a "70" leadpipe before, at least not from Kanstul.

[Slidemo]

OP, post some pics if you can....

Could the "70" pipe be a replica (or original...) 70H pipe which would have had a Remington taper. That would account for some Morse mouthpiece mismatch.

Although the opposite could also be a possibility, all your pipes are Morse and your 2G has a Remington shank. That would produce lots of wobble.

Kind regards.

[mrdeacon]

So it's all about perception! It's amazing how the brain can make something out of nothing!!

And at least there's consistency to all the inconsistency of nothing else

So what should be the correct depth then?

I'll take some comparison pics and post them here.

I'm finding with these long shanks it's less about "insertion depth" and more about how far the overall mouthpiece sticks out. If that makes any sense.

Most mouthpieces Bach, Elliott, Greg Black, ect. are almost all the same length so it's pretty easy to judge insertion depth and what "proper depth" is with those pieces while these long shank pieces are in their own hemisphere haha.

[WGWTR180]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

What mouthpiece do you use again? I feel like we had a conversation about this before...

At least with Brad's pipes and M&K I've had zero issues with insertion depth. Across the years of production too.

I think we all have different tolerances for what that acceptable depth is. Personally I've always gone by Doug's definition of what that depth should be.

I use a Mt Vernon 1 and 1/2G. I'll try to post pics later of it in some pipes. M&K sent me 6 pipes to try. 2 wouldn't even fit into my instruments. All 6 had different insertion depths. I have also compared many of the Brad Close pipes. In 3 instances the exact same pipe ordered by three different players. Not only were the pipes different lengths, sometimes off but an inch or more, but each insertion depth was different.
I'm not a mouthpiece maker and I'm not going to sit here and question Doug necessarily but "having different tolerances for what that acceptable depth is" is why we are who we are. What matters to me might not matter to you(or what works for me might not work for you).

[WGWTR180]

I’ve found with most modern pipes, especially Ferguson, Close, M&K , along with others my mouthpiece sticks out too far.

What do you do about it, Bill?

That's a great question Gabe. I'd like to experiment with increasing the mouthpiece depth but I cannot do it myself. I bought that pipe from you because it is the only one I've found in it's existing state that works in my Rath-and the mouthpiece goes in far enough. I have some pipes that are close but and I'd love to have them altered. Maybe I should go to Steve Shires shop and have him get out the blow torch and his trusty rubber hammer. That's how he altered one of my pipes many moons ago at Osmun Brass.

[Rob1662]

Ok, it is OL not 70 - read it upside down

Here's some pics but I've noticed my old Kanstul GR and new Kanstul 1.5 Fit correctly, the Bach 2G has no other markings to suggest it's been modified?

Sorry cant upload pictures at the moment.

[tbonesullivan]

Ok, it is OL not 70 - read it upside down

Here's some pics but I've noticed my old Kanstul GR and new Kanstul 1.5 Fit correctly, the Bach 2G has no other markings to suggest it's been modified?

That's kinda strange. The GR uses the standard bass trombone taper, it just is designed to fit in further. The 1.5 should also be that taper.

The markings on those leadpipes can be hard to read. Does this mean you've got two of the OL pipes?

I've got a Kanstul 6 1/2 AL - L , and it fits all my trombones correctly. Could just be that something is weird with that 2G.

[Rob1662]

I have a C. 62 and OL. Sorry for the confusion

I have an extensive collection of mpc's most of which have the same problem as the 2G. Only the Kanstul mpc's seem to fit correctly - that is, not being snipped by the end of the leadpipe, the Kanstul ones are definitely held along the shank taper, hence no wobble. If I push and slightly turn the other mps they do not wobble but that's not the point.

[mrdeacon]

Ahhh so that's a problem with the Kanstul pipes. There was definitely a period of time where they were very inconsistent with their quality on their leadpipes. Or maybe even like you said they might have tried some weird proprietary shank size at some point. Your pieces should not wobble like that or go in that far.

Easiest solution is to use plumbers tape to increase the diameter of the shank and find the correct insertion depth you're looking for. I use that trick on a couple mouthpieces I have with Olds shanks and other slimmer shanks.

[tbonesullivan]

Yep, Plumbers tape definitely helps.

I haven't had any trouble with my Kanstul pipes, but they are all for .547 horns. I did notice that none of them are the same length though. The BB I got with my 1570CR is not the same as the one that came with my 1588, and so forth. Not sure if it really matters.

[Rob1662]

So, will any scew in leadpipe from other manufacturers fit in my kanstul - Getzen etc.?

[tbonesullivan]

So, will any srcew in leadpipe from other manufacturers fit in my kanstul - Getzen etc.?

The threading on the collar is different. I think that it is the same as Shires? Or you can get a press fit leadpipe without threads.

[Doug Elliott]

There are a lot of issues with tapers being inconsistent on both mouthpieces and leadpipes. In a leadpipe, sometimes the taper isn't the same all the way through the insertion depth, so if mouthpieces fit to different depths, one may wobble and another not.

As I understand the OP's problem, it sounds like the knurled ring is a little smaller than the taper should be at that point. So the mouthpiece taper is sticking at that point and not seating in the rest of the receiver as it should. I've seen that before. One of the reasons that sort of thing happens is the heat and cooling of soldering distorts the tubing and it should be reamed afterward to correct that. But that's up to the manufacturer, it's not easy to fix later.

[WGWTR180]

There are a lot of issues with tapers being inconsistent on both mouthpieces and leadpipes. In a leadpipe, sometimes the taper isn't the same all the way through the insertion depth, so if mouthpieces fit to different depths, one may wobble and another not.

As I understand the OP's problem, it sounds like the knurled ring is a little smaller than the taper should be at that point. So the mouthpiece taper is sticking at that point and not seating in the rest of the receiver as it should. I've seen that before. One of the reasons that sort of thing happens is the heat and cooling of soldering distorts the tubing and it should be reamed afterward to correct that. But that's up to the manufacturer, it's not easy to fix later.