Schilke mouthpiece question

[dukesboneman]

I recently switched from a Bach 7C to a Schilke 51B (on my small horn)
I love the sound and my upper range (above high D) is starting come back.
Does anyone know how the depth of the 51B compares to the cup depth of the Bach 7C.
I know the 51B was originally designed for Jay Friedman so I know it`s not a C cup
Thanks in advance

[Ted]

But you have both? Why can't you compare them?

[jtbandmusic]

The 51B is a shallow-ish large symphonic mouthpiece. The Bach 7 is a small-to-medium. The 51B is both larger diameter AND deeper than the 7. But I think the bigger is the SHAPE... 51B is a shallow bowl, the Bach piece is a funnel.

The best comparison chart is at https://www.bestbrass.jp/mouthpiece/pdf/trombone.pdf
Johnn Thompson

[Burgerbob]

The 51B is a shallow-ish large symphonic mouthpiece. The Bach 7 is a small-to-medium. The 51B is both larger diameter AND deeper than the 7. But I think the bigger is the SHAPE... 51B is a shallow bowl, the Bach piece is a funnel.

The best comparison chart is at https://www.bestbrass.jp/mouthpiece/pdf/trombone.pdf
Johnn Thompson

7C, not 7. The 7C is totally different than a 7, if they even have the same rim size.

[Bach5G]

The 51B was famously (or maybe apocryphally) JF’s Bolero mpc. It is the shallowest of the 51, 51B, 51C4, and 51D group of mpcs. I’m not sure where the 51 fits in. Between the 51C4 and 51D, I think.

[chromebone]

I took a lesson with Friedman last year and we briefly discussed the 51b (I play a regular 51 myself). He said it was his main mouthpiece for many years, and now he sometimes uses it for Bolero. It was some sort of copy or variant on a 5g/6-1/2 Al that Renold Schilke designed for him.

[Bach5G]

I use a small shank 51 on my .525 tenor. Maybe not everyone’s first choice- not even mine, actually - but I keep coming back to it because I like the way it plays and sounds. I have sensible DE options, but I keep coming back to the 51.

[PaulT]

Yamaha has a family of 51 mouthpieces. From shallower cup to deeper, 51B, 51C, 51, & 51D (with the 51 being roughly comparable to the Back 5G).

Are the Yamaha and Schilke 51s similar? Is there a connection between the two companies, as regards their mouthpiece designs?

[PaulT]

I have flirted with the 6.5 AL and the 5g, but I keep coming back to the 51. Primarily the 51C4, but for the last week I have been on the 51 and I think that's now my mouthpiece.

I use the 51C4 on my small bore .525. I'm really happy with it, but I suppose now I might have to get a small shank 51 and see how it goes. (fortunately, Yamaha mouthpieces don't break the bank).

[Bach5G]

Yamaha has the same numbering system (Schilke did some consulting for Yam) but the Yam sizes are a bit smaller than their Schilke counterparts. A Y51 might be closer in size to a Y50.

[Kevbach33]

What Bach5G said. Yamaha rims are smaller than the equivalent numbered Schilke. It peeves me when someone recommends a Y58 and a S58 when mentioning starter bass trombone mouthpieces; the Schilke is quite a bit bigger.

I will also be looking for a more shallow mouthpiece for my Holton when I need it for big band, and definitely leaning toward Schilke. Would the 51B or 51C4 be better there? Both are available in large shank, I believe.

[dukesboneman]

Kevbach33,
What size is your Holton?
I`m using the 51B on my LT12G and am really starting to love it.
My upper range is coming back, but the sound...........Dark and glorious

[Bach5G]

I have a 51B for sale Old style (long). $45 + $5 for shipping.

[Posaunus]

I will also be looking for a more shallow mouthpiece for my Holton when I need it for big band, and definitely leaning toward Schilke. Would the 51B or 51C4 be better there? Both are available in large shank, I believe.

Is the "Holton" a bass trombone? In that case, I recommend neither a Schilke 51B nor a Schilke 51C4. The 51B is an anomaly for me that I've never really liked with any trombone, but in any case it is much too shallow for a bass trombone. The 51C4 is a good large tenor mouthpiece, but I prefer the slightly larger Schilke 51 for large tenor.

If you want a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece suitable for higher range, think Bach 2G (smallest of the 3), Yamaha 58L (larger) or Schilke 58 (largest). [You might get away with a Bach 3G, but will get sideways glances from other trombonists!] All will work for many big band 4th trombone parts.

[Kevbach33]

I will also be looking for a more shallow mouthpiece for my Holton when I need it for big band, and definitely leaning toward Schilke. Would the 51B or 51C4 be better there? Both are available in large shank, I believe.

Is the "Holton" a bass trombone? In that case, I recommend neither a Schilke 51B nor a Schilke 51C4. The 51B is an anomaly for me that I've never really liked with any trombone, but in any case it is much too shallow for a bass trombone. The 51C4 is a good large tenor mouthpiece, but I prefer the slightly larger Schilke 51 for large tenor.

If you want a smaller bass trombone mouthpiece suitable for higher range, think Bach 2G (smallest of the 3), Yamaha 58L (larger) or Schilke 58 (largest). [You might get away with a Bach 3G, but will get sideways glances from other trombonists!] All will work for many big band 4th trombone parts.

I should have mentioned that this is a 168 large tenor. Because I already have a true bass, I'm not looking for small bass mouthpieces. Hence why I asked about shallow large tenor pieces.

If neither 51B or 51C4, I guess I can give a normal 51 a try. An M5.1 will also possibly be in my radar.

[harrisonreed]

Large bore tenor in a big band. Sounds like a lot of work!

[Burgerbob]

Large tenor in big band? Just get a cheap large shank Bach 6 1/2A, save up for a small horn.

[chromebone]

I always thought Friedman could sound a bit harsh at times when he played the 51B, it seemed like it was a easy mouthpiece to over blow on. He did spend some of the time playing it on his Holton, which was a duo -bore horn, and sitting next to Crisafulli, who played a 51 mouthpiece of some sort on a Holton as well. Friedman changed his concept when Mulchahy and Vernon came into the section. He is probably the only player who was already great, but sounded even better as they got older. At 80, he still sounds great, maybe better than he sounded when he was 30. A pretty remarkable feat for a brass player, if you ask me.

[Trav1s]

I have owned three different small shank 51Bs since the mid 80's. First one I purchased new in 1987 and is still floating around Ohio and is owned by a friend. That's the one that got me hooked. She bought me a replacement after damaging the original and it was made in the early 90's. I played that one until I picked up a gold plated version about 10 years ago. All were similar in size and response but the first one was special. The 51B was my go to piece on .522" Conns until Doug Elliott measured the gold one at ITF 2018 and set me up with the LT102/LTD/D4 combo. I'd actually guess the Schilke rim was more like a 101.5 but the LT102 was magic for me and I trust Doug's wisdom on the combo.

For me, the 51B or Elliot combo don't play well on smaller horns. I tried them on a Kanstul 750, Conn 77h, Besson 8-10, and Conn 32H without luck.

[Doug Elliott]

The reason they don't play well on smaller horns is that the backbore is set up for larger bore (.522-.525) horns. I wouldn't expect my D4 shank to work on a smaller bore horn - the same goes for the 51B. On mine you can change the shank to a D2 or D3.

[Bach5G]

How would the D4 work with a large shank receiver? (I have both a small and a large shank receiver for my .525 Shires).

[BGuttman]

D4 requires a small shank receiver. D8 would be the shank for a large receiver. Or D7 if Doug still makes them.

[Doug Elliott]

My #4's are small shank.

[Bach5G]

D4 requires a small shank receiver. D8 would be the shank for a large receiver. Or D7 if Doug still makes them.

Right. I should know that. I’ve got an E4 and an E8. On my .525, I play a ss Schilke 51 and a ls DE 102 G8 or H9.