Learning tenor and bass trombone together

[Merv66]

I taught myself bass trom for about a year but for the past year have played tuba only. I now wish to
Learn tenor trom but would like to resurrect the bass at the same time and move both forward. How practical is it to learn both at the same time? Or is this more than the brain can stick?

[BGuttman]

It really depends on what you want to do.

Bass trombone in a Brass Band has a very different role and concept from the other trombones. In other applications it's less different.

To a large extent, a bass trombone is a larger tenor with possibly one extra valve. All you need to do is to make sure you work on the lower register to cover the notes usually assigned to the Bass

If time permits, you should practice both the bass and the tenor (as well as the tuba). But much of the stuff you need to learn crosses over pretty well.

[Neo Bri]

I usually prefer to think about, and to teach, the bass trombone and the tenor trombone as the same basic instrument...a trombone. I don't know if that's helpful for you. To me, they're the same instrument, just with slightly different dimensions, and different concepts. But I can usually play any tenor part on bass and any bass part on tenor.

[hyperbolica]

Tenor and bass are basically the same instrument to beginners and at the advanced level. Buzz lips, overtone series, slide technique, read music, time, intonation, etc. But to people in the middle the differences are bigger. The range, the air, the additional valve, the weight, the general function in a musical group.

I would suggest that you pick one, and master the things that are common between them, and then branch out to increase your range. No sense in eating the whole cow at once. Tenor is going to be most foreign to you so you might start there.

As someone who struggles with the differences, I find it hard to simultaneously maintain the extremes of range of both. I don't care what anyone says, lip slurs are different in the upper range vs the lower. The strategy of using 2 valves (plus a slide) can greatly complicate things.

It really depends on what you want to do with it. You might find that the hardest parts of learning trombone (for a tubist) are the parts common to tenor and bass - slide lip slurs and regulating air.

Best of luck.

[tbonesullivan]

As other have said, unlike with other "tenor/bass" series of instruments, the Tenor trombone and bass trombone are really the same instrument, in the same key. The only differences come to the bore size, bell size, and associated resonances. It's pretty much like the difference between a 3/4 BBb tuba with 3 valves, and a 5/4 BBb tuba with 5 valves.

Like on a Tuba, the extra valves on a Bass trombone are there to make the instrument chromatic all the way down the 1st harmonic/ fundamental.

[imsevimse]

The tenor and the bass trombone is the same instrument? Yes and now. If you are new to the instrument you tend to play them the same because you're limited experience in the other instrument. From that inexperienced viewpoint they are definitely very alike. I started to play tenor 1975 and bass in 1988. In the beginning I had great difficulties to change between the instruments. I could go from tenor to bass but not the opposite. I felt the big difference in mouthpiece between my Bach 12C and the Bach 1 1/2. It felt very awkward. I put the bass back in the box and thought it was too "woofy" to handle. I had also difficulties to get a good sound on the bass and both low and high notes were out of centre. Instead of putting a lot of work into that I put the bass in the case. I did not do serious attempt until ten years later. Now my emboushure was ready and I could handle the big mouthpiece much better. I still struggled to combine the pieces and always felt the rim size to be awkward when I switched from bass to tenor. I had a schema where I each day started on alto and went through small bore and large bore and finished on bass. About 20 minutes on each. I could still not do it backwards. Now it is 2019 and my emboushure has develloped further and I have no trouble at all to go back and forth from any size of a mouthpiece. I think this comes from the adoption that I have learnt. I now treat every instrument as a different instrument. They need different air and different blow to get the "core". They have different roles. I think the differences in size of mouthpiece helps me to not mix them up. I think differently on sound when I play alto, tenor or bass. I think I treat them very differently and that's why the switching between them works nowdays.

/Tom

[Merv66]

Thanks for all those comments, very interesting. I am retired and have plenty of time so felt it would be good for the grey matter to set myself a challenge and learn both instruments in tandem. It also means if either seat in my two bands becomes available I’m in a position to jump. I’ve now being doing this for two weeks and boy it’s tough. I do 1/2 hr on the tenor in the morning and the same on bass in the afternoon using similar exercises eg slurs, scales, long notes, sight reading etc. I know you say they’re basically the same instrument but I feel my time’s not wasted doing this. I also do 15 mins with a pencil on each clef writing in slide positions ad nauseum over hymn tune notes to breed familiarity.
All in all after these few weeks I’m slowly becoming familiar with both sets of slide positions and can jump from one to the other with a little success. I think if I progress with this after a few months hopefully I’ll be able to pick up either instrument and read the appropriate music without thinking.
Thanks again for all your opinions.

[BGuttman]

What kind of bass trombone are you playing that you need to pencil in slide positions? A G?

What we use today as a bass trombone is a Bb trombone with a valve to change to F (and often a second valve to change to D or Eb with both engaged). The slide positions with one or two valves are different from the positions of a Bb trombone: you get 6 on a normal Bb slide in F and 5 on a Bb slide in D.

[Merv66]

Thanks Bruce. Well when I learnt the Bb/F trigger bass ( before I got the tenor) I was used to slide position 1 being Bb, F, Bb etc reading music on the bass clef. Now on the tenor slide position 1 will give me C, G, C etc when reading treble clef music. I find this most confusing having two sets of slide positions depending on whether it’s treble clef or bass clef music. That’s why I have to write slide positions over the notes fof each horn just to get the positions into my head. Maybe I’m making things more complicated than they need to be? Pardon me if this is the case

[BGuttman]

So you are playing Brass Band music with the tenor parts in transposed treble clef. That's making things harder. Most other uses of a tenor trombone read bass clef just like the bass trombone.

I went the other way. I learned tenor clef. The notes are in the same locations as on transposed treble clef but I'm reading the real note names. I just have to mentally change a couple of accidentals when reading transposed treble.

[marccromme]

Thanks Bruce. Well when I learnt the Bb/F trigger bass ( before I got the tenor) I was used to slide position 1 being Bb, F, Bb etc reading music on the bass clef. Now on the tenor slide position 1 will give me C, G, C etc when reading treble clef music. I find this most confusing having two sets of slide positions depending on whether it’s treble clef or bass clef music. That’s why I have to write slide positions over the notes fof each horn just to get the positions into my head. Maybe I’m making things more complicated than they need to be? Pardon me if this is the case

No, you don't have two sets of slide positions , treble and bass clef, you have two different ways of writing the same notes. Some people do even call them different, but in concert pitch they are the same.

So, think in concert pitch and accept that they look different in bass or bb treble clef, and the slide positions will be easy. Like a piano player reads two different clefs at the same time.

[Merv66]

Thanks you have a knack of putting into words what I’m trying to say

[Merv66]

Have been thinking on that and it makes sense.
HOWEVER, my thought process is as follows. Take for example G on the treble clef second line up. I say to
myself now that’s actually F concert pitch which is slide position 1. Similarly say B On the third line that is A concert pitch which is position 2. Does that not cause a millesecond delay in converting every note on the treble clef to concert pitch then selecting the appropriate slide position ?
Sorry if I’m not grasping this but after all I’m only a dumb tuba player
I appreciate your patience
M

[BGuttman]

Ten Tenor Clef puts middle C on the 4th line up of the staff (the D line in treble clef). If you learn to read your Bb treble clef parts in tenor clef you will be reading the notes in real pitch like you would with bass clef.

Question: do you read tuba parts in transposed treble clef as well? Most tuba players around the world (excluding Brass Banders) read bass clef in true pitch.

[Merv66]

Bruce I’m in a British Brass band so all music in treble clef EXCEPT bass trombone. Treble is all I knew until I took up bass trom!

[Merv66]

Just to diverge slightly. I have a Yamaha tenor and Rath bass. Would it be feasible to use the bass for both tenor and bass parts in a brass band context or would the sound be all wrong for the tenor part? Would mean one instrument fits all, a lot more convenient and could sell the tenor.

[imsevimse]

Just to diverge slightly. I have a Yamaha tenor and Rath bass. Would it be feasible to use the bass for both tenor and bass parts in a brass band context or would the sound be all wrong for the tenor part? Would mean one instrument fits all, a lot more convenient and could sell the tenor.

I play both tenor and bass and my choice would be to play a tenor part on tenor and a bass part on a bass.

There are smaller basses that can work as a tenor with the right mouthpiece. A Bach 45B bass can do that and also a Martin Bass with .536 bore. I have both and there are probably other small basses too. It will not be the sound of a Bach 36 which I think is a perfect match for tge first part in a Brass band

/Tom

[Merv66]

Thanks Tom I’m inclined to keep both